National constitutional conference
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(Clapping by Honourable Delegates)Hon. Delegate William Rongora Ole Ntimama: Honourable Chair, I am going to refer to Article 235(4), (b) II, I will read it Honourable Chair. “The review and assessment of all claims to unjust expropriation of land in the Coast, North Eastern, Rift Valley provinces and elsewhere whether arising from historical or other causes, in order to establish their validity and how best they can be justly, peacefully, equitably resolved”. Honourable Chair, it is this Article that says everything. Honourable Chair, I want to thank the Commissioner who did the presentation today, especially Prof. Okoth-Ogendo, who really knows the problems of land in this country and in Africa, like the back of his hand. But he said one most important thing, which the colonialists used, saying that the land had no owners. I want to go further and say; they also said that it was not occupied. Honourable Chair, this is why we lost a whooping 30,000 square miles of Maasai prime grazing land to the white man in the early stages of the 20th century. Two dubious, infamous bogus agreements were land agreements made in 1904 and 1911. They were later abrogated and this is why were moved forcefully and violently from our ancestral land to areas which were called Southern Reserves, were invested with malaria and tse tse fly. Honourable Chair, we lost many young men who tried to resist the movement. We lost women and children through exposure and exhaustion; and after that it gave us a big shock and trauma, we have never recovered. What I am saying before this assembly today is that, this assembly, this congregation, is our first and last line of defence in our protracted war for dispossession. (Clapping by Honourable Delegates),. in our protracted war for the restoration of our land. I have a lot of faith that even after 40 years and after a hundred years of marginalization, discrimination, dispossession and repression, this Conference is here today. I have a lot of faith in it that it, is going to be our line of defence in trying to get justice to the people who were victimized and who lost their land unjustly. Honourable Chair, I want to say in the outset that we are not here, with the aim of trying to relocate anybody or to move any Kenyan or to disturb any settlement that has been set. But we have a responsibility as the people, as the community to fight for our land rights. We have a responsibility (Clapping by Honourable Delegates) honour to see that we get our land restored. Our peers in Lancaster House did not sign the 1962 Constitution, because they still hoped and wished that the land will be restored to them, that is our position here today. We are actually backing our Lancaster House peers and we do remember facing Mount Kenya. Kenyatta said he will bequeath the sons of Mumbi and Gikuyu for restoration of Kikuyu land, the living, the dead and the unborn - that the position of the Maasai community today. (Clapping from Honourable Delegates) We bequeath our children, the living, the dead and the unborn to go on following this particular issue until justice is done. I want to talk a little about development. I have said that were thrown into the periphery, development has been away from us for a hundred years. Our people still walk hundreds of miles to reach a healthcare centre. The infrastructure is non-existent, what we have in some of our areas is cattle tracks and nothing more than that. The present free and compulsory primary education in our areas is a myth, we do not know what is happening. (Clapping by Honourable Delegates). Mr. Chair, I also want to say that illiteracy, ignorance and abject poverty are actually the order of the day. We have never had development; even after all this time, after we lost all this land. Honourable Chair, I want to say that what we really want is this. I wish to propose that after this Conference has finished all its work, that it recommends that the Constitution is amended to give way for an appointment of a high profiled Committee or Commission, to look into all those injustices, historical or of the past, which include of course the Coast, North Eastern, the Maasai and all other people who have lost respect and whose land has been robbed either by the colonialists or by some grabbers in our two successive African Governments. We have an option Mr. Chairman, also that we could institute legal proceedings against the British Government, for all these losses and discrimination that has been done. But definitely we are going to enjoin the Kenya Government, because although the British are the principle culprits, definitely the two African successive Governments are accomplices of all these problems that have taken place in this thing. Mr. Chairman, we sometimes have been a laughing-stock as the community of the Maasai. You know very well, although this is land also, most of our game parks have been hived out of the Maasai land unit, even with our neighbours across there. But Mr. Chairman, even for all that money, which is boosting the foreign exchange of this country, where we should have got a share for development, we don’t. What happened Mr. Chairman, is that some of them equate us with the wildlife. Some of us think because our pictures decorate the logos of tour companies and hotels, some of us say that we are even walking artifacts and so we do not Mr. Chairman have any recognition at all, even for the contribution of preserving dead wildlife heritage, for the benefit of this country and for the benefit of our visitors up there. Lastly, Mr. Chairman, because I do not want to take most of your time, is to say that the laws of land have discriminated against us. The land adjudication particularly has discriminated against us. The land officers, the provincial administration Mr. Chairman, with their Land Control Boards have all favoured the buyer of the land and discriminated against the seller. In fact what has been going on is the willing buyer and an unwilling seller. The provincial administration and even the Land Control Boards, where the provincial administration have appointed sycophants and quislings who are ready to sell their tribe down the drain, and this is why most of our people, young men, have lost land. They have lost because they have been pushed out, they are all crowded and idling in overcrowded urban centres, which is not very fit for their culture. Some of them have turned into drug addicts, some of them are drinking alcohol, because they have not read, they have no ready skills, they are not educated, what do they do next? Attracted to join the criminal gangs. Mr. Chairman, even sometimes when we stood firm and defended our rights, for example our grazing rights, our water sources, even when we are the victims we have been termed he aggressor. Even when truly we have been wronged, we are always portrayed as the aggressor, and sometimes we are summarily punished for doing nothing but just for defending what is our right. (Clapping by Honourable Delegates). Mr. Honourable Chair, I have said again and I want, to repeat, that I want the Constitution amended to provide for the appointment of a high profile Commission to look into all these problems of the Coast, North Eastern and Maasai. Thank you. Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Thank you, Honourable Delegate. In the next row, we are looking for a District Delegate. The next row and not a Member of Parliament, a District Delegate. I notice one that has not spoken before and he is keen on speaking today. Delegate number 428. In the meantime, in the next row I will be looking for somebody from COTU, Trade Unions and that category. Hon. Richard Ngoge Kibagendi: Thank you Mr. Chairman, I am Richard Kibagendi, Delegate number 428 as you have put it. Thank you for the chance. Mr. Chairman, this Chapter has been drafted very well. I want to speak on the ownership of land, whereby it is said that the land belongs to the people of Kenya collectively and as communities. Well that is very good, the land cannot belong to people, all the people in a community, and yet a few of these members have small pieces of land while by whatever means some of our Kenyans have big tracts of land, much of it being underused and yet we have here agreed that land is a very fundamental resource. Mr. Chairman, I am therefore proposing that this draft Constitution should have a limit, if the land cannot be redistributed, then it should have a limit whereby we say if one can own upto say a hundred acres of land and any excess of a hundred should be taxed, so that the money so collected can go to assist in the development of this country, and moreso in an areas where people have small pieces of land which cannot sustain their lives. Secondly, Mr. Chairman, while we accept in the Article on the protection of property, I am also of the opinion as it is drafted here, that the property that people have had on the land that they have already acquired, should be protected very seriously by the law so that we live in a peaceful country. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Thank you, Honourable Delegate. As I said earlier we are looking for the category of COTU, NGOs, Professionals, Women Group, Religious Organizations, Political Parties from this row over here; and preferably a person who has not spoken before and has keen interest in speaking today, before we get onto the others. We will get onto you, there will be enough time allotted for this. I recognize somebody from the Political Party group who has not spoken before. Delegate number 585 and this time over here, I will be looking for a Member of Parliament. I hope before that Delegate speaks, I hope that is a point of order, and you know I am a master of standing orders that it is going to be a standing order. Yes, what is your standing order? Hon. Delegate Rita Katamu: It is a point of order. My names are Rita Katamu, Delegate from Butere Mumias. I have followed you properly and I am seeing you sideline women. Just the way we have always been sidelined on land issues. Kindly, take care and let us participate. Thank you. Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Well, we take your point. I don’t think we don’t need clap. You have only been and we want to be very categorical in this. We have only done 1,2,3,4,5 people and I will get onto that and I can also tell you as a person I look after Affirmative Action a great deal. So, at this point can we have Delegate number-- The one I had asked to speak, please do continue. Hon. Delegate Denis Okuthe: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am Denis Okuthe, the founder Chairman of the Liberal Democratic Party and also the current Chairman of the party with the majority in Parliament. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, Honourable Delegates and distinguished journalists. I am going to comment on a few points:
When I talk about ownership of land, my dear Honourable Delegate 1 has mentioned about this, but my concern is that, what is the limit of this ownership? If somebody can own the entire Nairobi, what about somebody who does not even have a single piece of land? My request for the Constitution we are going to make for this country is that we have to seriously think about this question of land ownership because we have seen situations in the country where one person or a few individuals own tracts of land which are not utilized and yet you go to places where somebody does not even own a single piece of land. To me, Mr. Chairman, what we are doing here is a very serious document that we are going to produce for this country, for now, for tomorrow and for the future. I think if you look at the situation in the country today, and I am talking from the Liberal Democratic Party perspective, there is a clique, are a few Kenyan individuals whom I can describe as being very lucky but then there are majority Kenyans who are today, the moment we are speaking now, do not even have a shelter, or anything to put on their heads. Mr. Chairman, when I look at Article 233 (2), you are talking of individuals owning land. What I would have requested, and if the Honourable Delegates are going to agree with me, is that the Constitution comes up with a provision which sets the limit, the number of land or acreage an individual can own so that every Kenyan is given an opportunity to own land. Mr. Chairman, fellow Honourable Delegates, for a few of us who have had a chance to travel, Kenya can take care of itself by producing enough food that can feed and sustain its people. Sometimes when you travel this country, it doesn’t matter where you are traveling, you will find that we have a lot of land which is lying idle. Nobody has a right to talk about that land, nobody has a right to institute condition as to how that land can be utilized. I have gone through this chapter, Mr. Chairman and dear Honourable Delegates, there is no area talking about utilization of land. If I own this land for instance, I am lucky to have bought or to have been allocated the whole Nairobi and I am not utilizing it. It is lying idle, it is a prospective land, it is very productive and nobody is doing anything about it . That is not helping this country. I think there should be a rule in the Constitution that we are going to make, that if you are going to own this land, it doesn’t matter how you own it, then you must be given time to use it. Mr. Chairman, Kenya should not be importing maize. It is shameful for us as a country to be importing maize, that Kenyans cannot feed themselves. We should not be importing wheat, we should not be importing all other products which we can produce. The other day I had an experience with a Japanese expert who instead of feeling sympathy for Kenya, that we don’t have this to do that, he was laughing off. He said, “Denis you have a lot of water, you have a lot of land, there is a lot of rain, you are lucky to have all these, why can’t your people, why can’t you as Kenyans utilize this?” If you go deep down why this is happening, it is because there are few individuals who own tracts of land, they are not utilizing that land, and people are starving on the other end because we cannot produce. Mr. Chairman, the other point that I was going to look at is the squatters. Why do we have squatters in this country? It is a question that we people who are making the Constitution today should really put emphasis on because we are developing a country and the population is increasing. We don’t want to create a situation where Mr. Denis Okuthe or somebody somewhere, once he is in power or is close to power, wants to own each and every place that he feels is not to be taken. We have seen situations in this country where people have even grabbed public utility plots, they have grabbed toilets, what about the person who cannot grab, Mr. Chairman? I think when we are making this Constitution, it is important that we really seriously look at this country, look at the children that we are bringing up, look at the population we are having and the population that is going to come so that we guarantee, we put safeguards, we control those who think that they can own. The other point, Mr. Chairman, before I sit down and thank you very much for giving me this chance because I raised my hand several times, the other issue is compensation. We have a situation in Kwale where Titanium mining and I heard the Minister the other day saying that they will be paid this much per acre. How did arrive at that? I think the Constitution should have a situation whereby it is put in the Constitution that should we find this in this particular place, then this is the level of compensation we are going to give to the people. I have had a chance to be there, Mr. Chairman. Those people are farmers, they have families, if somebody gives you Ksh. 80,000/= per acre, what is going to happen to your family? So, I think it should not be a question of an individual deciding on how much somebody who owns land should be given, but it should be reflected in the Constitution in a way that when you discover whatever resource in wherever he lives, then there is a proper compensation which will enable such people to get shelter, land or accommodation elsewhere. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Thank you, Honourable Delegate. The next row as I had said was the category of Members of Parliament. I want to recognize, I want to move from Rift Valley, I will balance you because I know you well. I am your shepherd in Parliament. So, I want to move from Rift Valley and move to the Coast, Member number 53. I will get on to you. Member number 050--- Hon. Delegate Joseph Khamisi: Bwana Mwenyekiti, jina langu ni Joe Khamisi, Mjumbe wa Bahari-- (Noise from Honourable Delegates) Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: I will get to you. Hon. Delegate Joseph Khamisi: --skwota wa hali ya juu, nambari 53. Bwana Chairman, ningependa kuanzia kwanza kunukulu mswada wa haki za binadamu, Article 54 na 59 ambazo zinasema kwamba kila mtu ana haki ya kuwa na ardhi aidha kibinafsi au kwa jumla na watu wake. Article 59 inasema kwamba hakuna mtu atakayeweza kuondolewa kutoka nyumbani kwake kwa nguvu au nyumba yake kuvunjwa bila ya order kutoka kwa Mahakama Kuu. Bwana Chairman, kila siku katika nchi hii ya Kenya hali hii inakiukwa na mimi nafurahi kwamba Kamisheni hii imekubali kuongeza vipengele hivi katika Katiba mpya ili kuondoa dhiki ya wananchi wa sehemu hizi. Bwana Chairman, katika sehemu ya Pwani, tuna wale ambao wametajwa kama ni absentee landlords. Watu ambao walikuja na kupewa ardhi na Sultan katika miaka ya 1800, 1900 wakati huo na hivi sasa wale absentee landlords hawako, lakini ardhi yao nyingi, mamia ya ardhi yameshikiliwa na maskwota wanaoishi katika sehemu hizo. Na jambo la kusikitiza Mwenyekiti ni kwamba maskwota hawa wanaitishwa kodi. Kila wakati wanapojaribu kulima wanapewa amri ya kutoa kodi ambayo inaitwa ‘mkate’ kwa hawa majambazi ambao hawako katika nchi hii. Bwana Chairman, ningependa kukurudisha katika Article 236 (2) (a), ambayo inaipa serikali uwezo wa kuchukua ardhi kwa nguvu iwapo kuna tisho la nidhamu na tisho la usalama. Nataka kusema kwamba lipo tisho la usalama katika sehemu ya Pwani, lipo tisho la usalama katika sehemu ya Bahari ninayowakilisha. Kwa hivyo, ni muhimu kwamba serikali ichukuwe hatua ya haraka kuchukua ile ardhi ili kuweza kuondoa lile tisho lililoko katika usalama na nidhamu ya nchi hii. Bwana Chairman, ipo pia ardhi ambayo inaitwa ardhi ya Serikali ambayo inakaliwa na maskwota. Tunataka serikali iweze kuwa na imani ya kutoa ardhi ile kwa wale masikwata ambao wako katika ardhi ile. Pia kunao wale mabebe au mabwenyenye waliochukua ardhi kwa nguvu kwa njia ya ku-grab baada ya uhuru wa Kenya. Tunawaomba Serikali, katika Katiba hii, ifute zile ardhi zote zilizotelewa kwa njia ya decree ya President ambayo ilikuwa si halali na ardhi ile ipate kurudishwa mikononi mwa wananchi, kwa sababu wengi waliopewa ardhi hii walikuwa ni marafiki wa viongozi waliopita na tunafikiri kwamba kwa kuwa wananchi wa pale hawana ardhi, ni jambo la dhambi hata kwa Mungu kwamba ardhi hii imenyakuliwa na watu ambao hawafai kupewa ardhi ile. Jambo lingine ambalo linasikitisha ambalo silioni hapa, ni kuhusu ardhi za settlement schemes baada ya uhuru ambapo ndio ilikuwa njia kubwa ya mabwanyenye kutoka Bara kuja kuchukua ardhi katika sehemu ya Pwani. (Clapping by Honourable Delegates) Mimi nasema hivi kwa sababu hakuna hata Mpwani mmoja katika sehemu yangu aliye na ardhi ya beach plot. Beach plots zote zimenyakuliwa. Naomba Serikali na Katiba hii mpya sio tu kutupa Kamisheni, hatuna haja ya Kamisheni. Tatizo la ardhi linajulikana na Serikali na ni lazima liangaliwe hivi sasa, sio kesho. Jambo la mwisho ningependa kusema ni kwamba, katika Katiba hii kwa upande wa mali ya asili sijaona mention yoyote kuhusu mali ya asili ilioko katika Bahari ya Indi. Tunayo mali ya asili katika zile maili tulizo nazo chini ya uongozi wa Serikali. Ningependa kutia pendekezo katika Katiba hii, kwamba mali zilizoko chini ya bahari katika Bahari ya Indi katika ardhi ya Kenya, ziwemo katika vipengele vya Katiba hii ili vipate kuhifadhiwa na Serikali na kuwezesha wananchi kupata utajiri kutokana na uvuvi na kutokana na shughuli nyinginezo za kitalii. Bwana Chairman, singependa kupoteza wakati mwingi, lakini ningependa kuwahisi wenzangu kuhakikisha kwamba mambo haya ya ardhi yanaingizwa kwa ukamilifu sio kijuujuu. Asanteni. Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Thank you very much indeed, Honourable Delegate. In the next row, we are looking for a woman Delegate. The next row is the one next to where the speaker has just finished speaking. The next row over here, woman Delegate, and, because I have the misfortune of not having checked as to who may have spoken before, I would just choose at random and in the meantime I will ask the next row to also indicate their interest in speaking. Now I recognize Delegate number 467. Hon. Delegate Mary Wambui Kanyi: Thank you very much for giving this opportunity to speak on this important Chapter about Land which is very dear to us as individuals, communities and as a nation. I congratulate the Commission on the Chapter but I have a few comments to make. One, in Article 232, I am proposing that we add (g), devolution of land administration to the local levels. This is because we are aware that the poor people in the community--- Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Please, give your name and number before you go on, it is raising concern. Hon. Delegate Mary Wambui Kanyi: My name is Mary Wambui Kanyi, Delegate number 467, from the NGOs. Thank you. We should add (g) because we are aware of the problems that local people have had in addressing land issues in the community whereby sometimes, they are not even aware of the laws that address issues on land. Poor people have been dispossessed of their land. We have people like women, who cannot even know what is happening on their land and at times they are dislocated or even evicted from where their land that had been sold without their knowledge. On Article 233 (2), we should add that there must be a limit to the maximum size of land which an individual should own. This is because in all communities of Kenya, whether they are pastoralists or agricultural communities dealing with food crops, we have individuals who own so much land at the expense of other members of the community. So, can we have a limit of the amount of land an individual should own, so that anything extra can go to the other members of the community. Number (3) of the same Article, we have the issue of the lease which is 99 years, but I am proposing that we add that the lease will be reviewed every 30 years. The reason for this is that we are aware of land, which has been leased even to foreigners in this country. Many generations have come after, and they do not even know the conditions under which their land was leased by their ancestors and they cannot address that issue because the person to whom the land was leased, may be it was for a 100 or 99 years, but a generation is about 30 years. so, can we have a way of readdressing or reviewing the leasehold so that every generation is able to review if possible, even address the rate of the land which has been leased to foreigners. Article number 235, I am proposing that in number 4, we add number 10, whereby the Parliament would address the issue of compensation of communities whose land has been taken either by the Government for development purposes, or, where there are minerals or other resources to be exploited. This is because we are aware of how our communities, our fellow brothers and sisters are suffering. For example, at the Coast where we have the Titanium, which was discovered, we have communities like the Ogiek who are being expelled from their own ancestral land. Can we have Parliament through an Act, address the issue of compensation in which then we would have to address the details on the compensations – that is the rate as well as well as the time frame – after which the community would be expected to leave the land so that we do not have our people being evicted from their ancestral land which they have lived on for all their lives just to go out on the streets. Number (b) of the same number, 4, we have the establishment of a Truth Commission to address land related injustices and crimes in the past. Other than having number 2,3 and (c) in that section, I think this Commission would address the wrongs that have been done to our people in this country. This would then be contained in an Act of Parliament, which would be passed by the Parliament. On National Land Commission, we need to ensure that we have regional representation. We know that different regions utilize land differently and unless we have proper representation from each region, then we would not have all the issues on land properly addressed. My last point would be to address the gender aspect in land access and ownership. The reason being that we have traditional laws or customary laws in this country whereby women have been discriminated so much that even when land is allocated, they are not considered in that allocation. Even on inheritance, our daughters and married women are dispossessed of property. So, can the Chapter also address the need to a gender-aware access to land ownership not just access, because we can have access when it belongs to your parents but when it belongs to your husband you do not have ownership. So, we need to address the need for access to land ownership for both men and women. Thank you. Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Thank you very much indeed Honourable Delegate. We are looking at the last one and this was going to District Representative and I want to recognize one that has not spoken before. Infact two of them, but I will go for Delegate number 394, you have not had the opportunity of taking the floor. We will be looking for a Delegate from that side but in the meantime, you can continue. Hon. Delegate Adungo Asitaluko Mark: Mr. Chairman, I will declare you my darling because you have just remembered to give me the opportunity having stayed here all this time. My first issue here is, my names are Asitaluko Adungo, from Teso District. I would like to add my voice to those Delegates that have congratulated the Commissioners for the nice job they have done. The Commission has done a good job and the Commissioners that have done the presentations have also done very well. It actually erases the original thinking that was in the minds of many who were campaigning that the Commissioners should not have been with us at the Conference. This now gives us a very clear picture that, without the Commissioners explaining what they have produced, maybe we would not have gone very far. I congratulate them and I would like to request them that whatever papers they have like they had…. Hon. Delegate: Point of order, Sir. Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Has he breeched any order? Please, let him continue if he has not breeched any order. Hon. Delegate Adungo Asitaluko Mark: Whatever papers they have, they should not be discouraged from giving us. The other day, they were frightened after being accused of sneaking in some documents. In my view, that document was very appropriate and indeed the Delegates should be allowed to read widely whatever information that will assist them to make rational decisions when they are finalizing the document. Therefore, all information that is available from all corners should be made available to the Delegates. Coming back to the Chapter we are discussing, I am glad that this time round, the Land Act which has been scattered all over will now be consolidated and perhaps will be one document governing land in this country. If that comes to be the case, we shall be a happier lot than we have been before because in the past, you found land matters scattered in very many documents. People from Teso sent me to say that particularly, the so-called registered land, when you are inheriting it from your ancestors, you are even asked to take the dead body to court. To them, that was unbecoming and should not be the case. In other words, they are saying that when it comes to inheritance of land or land administration matters, there should be a body at the local level that handles this, particularly the elders who would know better who owns what. That curtails the situation where you have rich people that can go round the courts, which have also been accused of corruption and take over land that belongs to the poor. Therefore they said, the land administration matters, particularly the land that belongs to communities and even registered land belonging to individuals should be relegated or left with the elders who would sort our those land matters well. I am also in agreement with the Commission that a Commission should be established. We are aware that the Commissioner of Lands which was supposed to be an agent in this country for public and Trust Land had turned itself to a principle and was dishing land left and right, selling it himself and to other people. I think when we have a Land Commission, my appeal is that that Commission to be entrenched in the Constitution, it should be a Constitutional Commission and not just one of these Commissions can be disbanded day after the other. I have seen from the Commission that there is no provision for entrenching that Commission in the Constitution. I would appeal that the Technical Committee that is going to look into this matter, fights hard and recommends that the Land Commission becomes a Constitutional Commission. I also agree with those that have talked about the absentee landlords. I think it is an abuse of the Kenyan sovereignty for people to own land when they are not in this country. They direct us on what to do with our land, they earn from our land when we are poor and so, any land that is owned by absentee landlords should be taken over immediately. Another thing that I wanted to add my voice on, is the question of leasehold land. The leases that have been given would last for a period of time, some last for a shorter period than 99 years. But the question is, what happens with the property that has been put up or developed on that land? This is because you find someone who has been allocated a small piece of land, maybe 0.5 of an acre or even less has put much development on that plot. In my view, I think leases to non-citizens or to foreigners should be short so that when they develop the land and when the lease ends, the land should be reverted to Kenyans and the person be compensated for the developments that he has done on the land. Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Thank you. Hon. Delegate Adungo Asitaluko Mark: Finally Mr. Chairman, I would like to say something about the endangered districts, because Teso sent me particularly for that. The endangered districts should remain. In that, I am referring Kenyans to what one Kenyan statesman said in the year 1962 in London that Kenya is (Inaudible) and nobody can snatch it from us. For the endangered districts, they are ours and nobody should remove them from us. Thank you, Bwana Chairman. Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Thank you. Point of order from Delegate number 531. Hon. Delegate Mustafa Ali: Mustafa Ali are my names, Delegate number 531. Sir, it has come to our notice that there is a particular person whom we can call a stranger coming to this side all the time. Sir, it has come to our notice that there is a particular person whom we can call a stranger. All the time he comes to this side of the house and at one point he was seated here looking at what I was writing and he went and sat there. He is everywhere. He is interfering with the deliberations of this Conference and the nature of interference is worse than the person who was carrying fire arm in this very hall. Can he be warned that he should not go and sit with the Delegates but sit where he is supposed to sit? Or if so - I am talking about a foreigner, he is an American - either he sits where he is supposed to sit or he can go back to-- Hon. Delegate Wilfred Ole Kina: Thank you very much on that. Let me say every member here has been allocated a position to sit and I think we should respect that so that we are able to go on with our deliberations. Hon. Delegate Sheikh Mustafa Ali: His name is Dr. Mitch Medina. Hon. Delegate Wilfred Ole Kina: I think that is the name you want. Thank you very much I think he gets the mood of the House, so please wherever you are, sit where you are supposed to sit. Thank you. Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Just to reiterate, what the Chair is saying is that if you are an Observer, you are supposed to sit on that allotted seat where you are supposed to be, in the chair right outside. Thank you. Thank you for that notification. We are looking at District Delegates again by virtue of their number and I have a record here that tells me that Hon. Delegate number 374 has not spoken since he entered here. Having said so, I want to recognize in the next section the following; and as you know the substantive Speaker of the National Assembly sitting right over there, would you lift up your arm. It is saying that the Chair is always right and therefore, I want to assume I am right and I want to recognize the next person after this one, delegate number 160, for the following reason, we want to know what the Government position is from that delegate who is number 160. So Delegate, continue. Hon. Delegate Joseph Soi: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. My name is Joseph Soi, Delegate number 374, from Buret District. My contribution Mr. Chairman, is on Article 233 Sub Section 2. And I think I can read the provision here. Non-citizens of Kenya may hold or use land on the basis of leasehold only and when such leases are granted, shall not exceed 99 years. Mr. Chairman, I mention this Article in reference to some indigenous people who were evacuated from the massive tea plantation in Kericho and parts of Buret to make room for the plantation of tea in those areas. Mr. Chairman, those people to date are languishing in poverty in some parts of Transmara and Narok district. Mr. Chairman, I propose that those people be compensated in terms of shares from the tea produce or even plot allocation elsewhere in the country. Mr. Chairman, it is even disturbing to know that even the communities from those tea estates do not benefit from the tea produce and this is because a larger percentage of the revenue from the sale of tea, is taken by the Central Government at the expense of the communities in those regions. I, therefore, suggest once more, Mr. Chairman, that at the expiry of 99 years leasehold tenure, the communities be given an opportunity to decide how they will benefit from the tea produce. Mr. Chairman, when people think of Kericho or Buret District, they probably have an idea that almost everybody in the district is very rich because of the large tea estates. Mr. Chairman, our infrastructure like those are in pathetic situation. Finally, Mr. Chairman, I propose that the 99 years lease be reduced to even 33 years and this should be subject to the consent from the communities in this area. Now, the last one, Mr. Chairman, is about matrimonial land. This is the family land. Matrimonial land should not be sold and should be registered in the family name, this can only happen with the consent of the two family members. Thank you very much Mr. Chairman. Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Thank you very much indeed Hon. Delegate, can we have the next row Hon. Delegate number 160. Point of order? Do I hear point of order? Yes, Delegate 111. Hon. Delegate Geoffrey Muchiri: Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I rise on a point of order. I do not want to contradict what you have said but I want to believe that we are all delegates and there is no position of government or anywhere else that we have in this hall. (Clapping by Honourable Delegates) As the Speaker number 160 prepares to rise, he is going to talk of his views not Government. I am a Member of Parliament on the government side, so if I speak what I have, this is not Government position, Mr. Chairman, and I think that needs to be corrected. Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: I would want feel that way but my position still remains that the delegate on his speech is a Government Minister and in that capacity the Government is in place and it is important that we, all of us, listen and then we shall give our views. That is exactly why we are here. Hon. Delegate number 160. Hon. Delegate Joshua Ojode: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My names are Joshua Ojode, Delegate number 160. Mr. Chairman, I would want to give a Ministerial position paper on land and I would want the delegates also to listen to our stand. What is the stand we are taking on land issue. Mr. Chairman-- Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Give the Honourable Delegate time to speak please, your time will come, please. Hon. Delegate Joshua Ojode: Mr. Chairman, let me start with the land policy framework. Mr. Chairman, my Ministry concurs with the proposal that land being a primary economic resource and the basis of livelihood for our people-- Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Order, order. (Noise by Hon. Delegates). Hon. Delegate Wilfred Ole Kina: Yes 003? Yes, let us listen to one of you, 003. Hon. Delegate Abdirahman Ali Hassan: I rise on a point of order Bwana Chairman, I am worried that the Hon. Delegate from the government side is going to influence the decision of the Hon. Delegates as we deliberate on this very pertinent issue related to land matters. I think it is of paramount importance for the Government side to give us their opinion at the latest stage, at the Technical Committee stage and not at this stage. Hon. Delegate Joshua Ojode: Mr. Chairman, let me promise the Delegates that I will sum up the position of the Ministry. (Shouting by Hon. Delegates). Yes, let the Ministry’s position be known. (shouting by Hon. Delegates). Hon. Delegate Wilfred Ole Kina: May I make a ruling on this, please let me make a ruling on this. (Shouting from Hon. Delegates) Hon. Delegates, give me an opportunity to rule on this. Hon. Minister, the Delegates, okay, the Government position is good and let me say this. It appears the Delegates would like to give their position before they know that of the Government so let us respect this Conference, if you have your personal position, I will allow you to give us that and then you will give us the last. You will give us the government position tomorrow as we are winding up. Thank you. Hon. Delegate Joshua Ojode: Thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I had been asked by some of the delegates to give an overview of the position of the Ministry. Hon. Delegates: No, no! Hon. Delegate Wilfred Ole Kina: Then, I have made my ruling. Thank you. Can we please proceed if you have your personal position please utilize that time if you don’t we will get another person. ( Shouting by Hon. Delegates). Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Okay then one promise, one promise, order, order please, order please, order. Now that the position has been felt, you have been promised as we come to a closure either tomorrow or the day after, it is firm that you will be given that opportunity to make your point. In the meantime, we shall move on to the same section but at least different category. Do we have anybody on Special Interest in that area? Special Interest in that area? Okay, Delegate number 176. Order please, order, Delegate number 176 has the floor. Order please, if you are retreating, do it quietly please. Hon. Delegate Samuel Poghisio: Thank you, Chairman, for the opportunity to take part in this discussion on the issue of land. Mr. Chairman my names are Hon. Samuel Poghisio, Delegate number 176 and I would like just to make a few comments. First, Mr. Chairman, we have all agreed that this is the principle resource. Land, is the principle resource of our people. I would like to speak from the position of one who has been disadvantaged. Hon. Delegate Wilfred Ole Kina: 054 please allow the Delegate to give his contribution; we will come back to you. Hon. Delegate Samuel Poghisio: I come as one who has been disadvantaged on the issue of land. Not as a person but as a people. Mr. Chairman, the people known as the Pokots have suffered close to 100 years because their land was taken away many years ago. The Pokots Mr. Chairman did not feature in the 1963 Lancaster Constitution. To make matters worse Mr. Chairman, one Samuel Poghisio, who stands before you, was actually annexed to Uganda for 40 years because the land was taken away by the colonialists. You cannot believe this, a few Kenyans know that the Constituency I represent right now called Kacheliba was handed over; 100% Kenyan territory was handed over in 1931 to Uganda for administration purposes because the land in Trans-Nzoia had just been taken away by the colonialists and in the intervening period Mr. Chairman, at one point we lost about 8,000 people because we were congested into an area that could not handle the population. 8,000 Pokots died because their land was taken away, so we stand for retribution. And so, I would just like to say in short that the Lancaster Conference did not address our land but this Conference should address it and must address the issues of injustices. I agree with my colleague who has spoken on historical injustices that we should set a date, this Conference ought to set a date, a cut-off date for discussing those lands. And the Njonjo Commission has recommended 1895, as such a date and this Conference has to accept that kind of date here rather than leaving it to Parliament. Clapping by Honourable Delegates Mr. Chairman, if you read the Njonjo Report, portions of which we were given, you realize the issue of historical injustice. The Pokots case has been well documented. The Pokot case along with the others who have spoken today and those who are yet to state their case, has been documented well. I would like therefore to ask Mr. Chairman, that the Pokot and others whose land was taken away, that Commission which is supposed to be set up to look into these injustices has to go back to 1895 and look at how land was then taken away, dispossessed from the people. I agree, Article 235 should include a compensation aspect and also we know from experience, that a lot of people who have sorted out these land issues have resorted to compensation. Mr. Chairman, the Pokot community under the then PC other (?) champion of the Turkana Province of the past, when he testified in the Carter Commission he recommended that the only option for the Pokot is expansion into Trans-Nzoia back to their land. That is there on record. At that time, when there were only a few of them - about 18,000 of them – it was recommended that the Pokots be given 10,000 acres from Trans-Nzoia which has never been given. The Carter Commission compensated and promised to give 40 farms to the Pokots out of the settlement areas in Trans-Nzoia; up to now that has not been given. What we are saying therefore, Mr. Chairman, is that we look at land issues today from the perspective of the disadvantaged people who were not educated at that time; the bigger communities swallowed the smaller ones and have pushed into those areas. The settlement schemes in Trans-Nzoia which were supposed to be given to these people as compensation were taken over by the big brothers and so land has to be dealt with in a very specific way. Our land as we have said, Mr. Chairman, is well documented. I would like to say for example, that there was a case where one million acres was given to some community as compensation in this country. There are identified firms in Trans-Nzoia, ADC farms, which could be given immediately even to the Pokots who are always accused of cattle rustling. Mr. Chairman, if people are squeezed into a place where they cannot expand and without justifying cattle rustling, the people will be forced to settle somehow and find space for themselves. I am saying that they should be given land and even that will change their character, that will change their habit that will change their livelihood. Mr. Chairman, the new Constitution should follow the Constitution of other countries. In South Africa the Kruger National Park, which was taken over from a certain community was given back by court decision. The Maori of New Zealand were given cash to represent the land which was unused for 100 years. We can actually do something here in this country. Mr. Chairman, I want to get back to the issue of Kacheliba as a Constituency for the record. When the Constitution was written in 1963, Kacheliba was not part of this country, it was locked out in another country. Now in 1971, Kacheliba was taken back to Kenya for administration purposes. From 1971 to date the Government has been unjust to Kacheliba, all governments of the time: no Government project, no settlement of any kind, no school built by the Government, no hospital built by the Government, that is a land issue. The land issues mean that Kacheliba should be considered as a special district in this country. Given their land, which was taken away from Trans-Nzoia, but at the same time recognized as a special place for catching up, this is the place where your equalization grants have to go. Special Affirmative Action for an area like that (clapping by the Honourable delegates). Mr. Chairman, if districts were given along political lines, the one which deserves a district are people like those of Kacheliba who were handed over to another territory, brought back without compensation, surviving and always being condemned. I would like to rest my case by saying that the land issues need to include, if necessary, compensation in terms of money, compensation in terms of land and I would like to say, let us read the Njonjo Commission and the Pokot of Kenya to be considered as people whose land was taken away. Thank you very much. Hon. Delegate Wilfred Ole Kina: Thank you Honourable Delegate. I had promised 054, a point of order. Hon. Delegate George Munyasa Khaniri: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Sorry to be taking you back to a matter that you have already ruled but Mr. Chairman, I feel that if we do not question this ruling - I still have a problem with the ruling - we will be setting a very bad precedence in this Conference. Mr. Chairman, in the handbook we have clearly been shown the categories of Delegates in this Conference; they are ten, District Delegates, Members of Parliament, the NGOs, Commissioners, Professional Organization, Women and so on. There is nowhere where it states that there are government representatives in this Conference. I believe that Honourable Ojode is here as a Member of Parliament and therefore when he makes his contribution, he should be talking as a Member of Parliament and not as a Government Minister. Mr. Chairman I beg your indulgence on this matter, I want you to withdraw the ruling that you made, Ojode should be given a chance now and not tomorrow to talk as a Member of Parliament. Hon. Delegate Wilfred Ole Kina: Thank you very much. I would like to remind you that in this very sitting, Honourable Maitha gave a government position as we were talking about devolution. At that particular time, you should have raised it and we should not have gotten into this problem. However, I am aware that we are not here as government, we are here as a people of Kenya and the way we are here we are the government; because it is the people of Kenya who form the government. So, let us not dwell on that, let us go on, and have the next representative from this section. Thank you. Noise from Honourable Delegates Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: The people have decided. Let us forge ahead. La voix de peuple, la voix de peuple; the people have said, we have heard, let us forge ahead. Let us recognize 499 from the category of Women and that Delegate has not spoken since this Conference started. Delegate 499, can we give her time please. Noise from Honourable Delegates Hon. Delegate Tabitha Seii: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am glad you have recognized my hand this time. I want to make my contribution on this very important subject. My name is Tabitha Seii, number 499. I want to make my contribution with regard to this very important subject of land and I dare say it is the one and only cause of conflict in many communities and between tribes. To mention just a few, the land clashes and many other clashes which have come by in this country. But one thing which I would like this Conference to do, is to have clear demarcation in the contributions that we make regarding what is the next thing to be done. People have moved from place to place and if we are going to follow the movements of people-- It goes way back to the 19th century to the 20th century, people have moved from place to place and none of us had a chance to say, “we came from here we need compensation”. I want to make a proposition, that where people have been found by this present law now, they sit there and observe the policies that will be made, otherwise we will not finish in going backwards and trying to ascertain where people have come from. If we do that, then we are going to go all the way to the River Nile, where I, as a Highland Nilote came from; my ancestors came down from River Nile and we parted company with the Lake Nilotes and we went up to the Highland and we have never moved ever since. In areas like the Rift Valley, the Keiyos, the non-Keiyo come from the name of Keiyo which is Maasai, Kerio, Uasin Gishu, where, so many of them; and if we go back to all these places, we know the Maasais were there. How far back can we go? Let us just come to the more recent issues on land, there are some burning issues regarding land which has been corruptly possessed in the present times by the present leaders, the present colonialists among us today and these are lands which we require for our development in these present times. There are forest lands which have been grabbed, there are Trust Lands which have been grabbed, there are public utility lands which have been grabbed, there are lands which have been taken as a result of the ignorance of the people perhaps who lived there and the cleverness of those who have accessed and understood the law; and they have possessed these lands. This Honourable Conference should be able to make some very clear suggestions as to how far back can we go. This country today is sort of research land. What do we do about the KARI land which has been taken and possessed by individuals? As much as we want to protect individual land, how individual is a land which has been acquired recently, and by virtual of a title deed the person now calls it his own land? Are we going to reflect that and say it is because you have a title deed, which you may have gotten because you were able to bribe somebody, or you were able to influence somebody to get that title deed? I had in question land which is very close to my heart, the Fluorspar land. This land is a place where Fluorspar mines are placed in the Kerio Valley where the owners of that land today have been made landless and squatters in their own ancestral land because it is right now owned by one individual who has taken that land for himself by virtual of his ability to buy the mines from the Government. How is that going to be repossessed and how are the people who have been reduced to crashers of the very stone where their ancestors lived, going to be compensated? They crash those stones to be taken as minerals to other countries to be sold and they have no compensation whatsoever. They don’t have even health facilities for the community, they don’t even have schools for the community, they work as labourers in the very land which they owned, and their ancestors lived in. How will such be compensated? There are also issues regarding land, mortgaged land and this mainly touches families. When land is mortgaged and a bank comes and sells the land, we need to have a clear policy regarding what mortgages can be done and by who within the family. We have people who have been dispossessed; who have been made squatters because they did not understand the law, and that brings me to talk a bit about education. When we make a law, and the people do not understand what the law means, in connection with what they possess, they become losers as a result of ignorance and thus today we have people who have been thrown out of their homes, bulldozers coming to push them out and they do not understand why. Personally I am a victim of this, when one morning a surveyor came and demarcated our land and we were told “you don’t have a title deed and this land is going to a particular school” and we did not know how to get that back; to this day, we do not have that land. So, this Conference, Honourable Chairman, must come out with very clear policies because these conflicts will continue to be in Kenya as long as we do not know how to redress the aggrieved people. Mr. Chairman, Thank you very much. Hon. Delegate Wilfred Ole Kina: Thank you very much. At this juncture, I would like to remind the two committees that were supposed to meet during lunch hour, that is the technical group E, on the judiciary, to meet at tent number 5, your lunch will be served there and the technical committee on defence and security to meet at tent number 9, your lunch will also be served there. The Commissioners will also be meeting; I think they know where they are supposed to meet. Thank you very much, let us adjourn for lunch and come back as soon as possible. Thank you. Afternoon SessionHon. Delegate Wilfred Ole Kina: Please take your seats; we are about to commence our deliberations this afternoon. We will begin in the next one-minute. Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Good afternoon Honourable Delegates. I believe we are all set to begin the afternoon session and I do hope that you have had a good meal and ready to make a very useful contribution like you have done in the past. We are right now under this category right in front of us, and we are recognizing a number of you, I do not know whether you have somebody from the Religious Organizations in that group or whether you have somebody from the Women Organization from that group, we do not want them marginalized and we recognize at the moment delegate number 390. We have been through yours, just before we went for lunch. Hon. Delegate Kellan Khaoma Wavomba: Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Let us take the order from 145. Hon. Delegate Ngoz Abdalla Jumaa: Point of order. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, mine is just to remind you that when we left here for lunch, you were on that block, I do not see why you have now gone to the other block and left this block. Thank you. Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Thank you I appreciate, I just wanted to remind you that the Honourable Delegate who spoke is apparently seating in the same block where the Chair seats. Now can we have the Honourable Delegate please to continue. Hon. Delegate Kellan Khaoma Wavomba: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for your protection. Mr. Chairman, I would like to contribute on this topic with the following. Mr. Chairman I would like to suggest that this Conference must, before doing any other thing with great concern, take into consideration the issue of the grabbed, stolen and forged land in different parts of these Republic. Mr. Chairman I insist that we must go down on record as a nation that we should never, ever again, allow such a greedy Government to manage the public resources, mostly the land. Mr. Chairman, as a mother I am touched that in some parts of our great country we have no way of expanding some of our essential public utilities like hospitals, airstrips, stadium, among others. This is because the land was grabbed by our own brothers and sisters. Mr. Chairman, I come from Bungoma District and I would like to say it openly here that we have a very, very sorry state of affairs whereby the main hospital of the District which acts as a referral hospital to other minor Districts can not be expanded and this is because the land that was reserved has been grabbed by people and therefore nothing has been done so far. Mr. Chairman, Bungoma people cannot enjoy the facilities of a show-ground because the land has been grabbed and this one was done during the other regime. I want to concur with the other speakers, Mr. Chairman, who said that the other Government misused its powers and I therefore urge this Conference that while we sit here to deliberate on this land issues, we should also put in place methods how this other land that was grabbed is going to be repossessed. Because Mr. Chairman we realized that, that is land that is supposed to be utilized by the public and it has already gone away and in the Draft I do not see anywhere, where it is mentioned that such land will be brought back to the public. Mr. Chairman, just to add a few, the airstrip and the stadium in Bungoma was grabbed by one of the very, very prominent people who had a big office and for this matter we are concerned. Mr. Chairman, I will not forget to mention that even personal land has been grabbed and this is because of the corruption that is in the Ministry of Land and DO’s office because they have taken control. The private surveyors have played a big role in this. Therefore I want to propose in this sitting that this Constitution empowers the land tribunal courts for elders. Mr. Chairman I am talking about this because I know very well that these are the people who are on the ground and that they know exactly the real owners of the land and that they can help limit this conflict between the clan, naighbours and any other people. Mr. Chairman, here I have in mind the widows and the orphans. They fall prey to their relatives after the death of fathers and husbands. Mr. Chairman, this is because of the corruption that is in the land offices all over the country. Finally, Mr. Chairman, I would like to say that when it comes to the public land, this Constitution should also specify how this land is going to be owned and in case of anything like grabbing their must be those other measures to be taken, and this is why we have had people take public land to themselves and nothing is done to them because when they cases go to court, you know what happens. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Thank you very much indeed Honourable Delegate. The other row, we would like to get somebody from political party, 594 and in the next one, we want to have the category of “Others”. Hon. Delegate Orie Rogo Manduli: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, thank you very much Honourable Delegates. I have been patient and quiet, I was waiting for this, that is why I did not try and talk in other sectors and I do hope that I will not be asked to sit down quickly because I am not talking for myself, but I am talking for all the landless women in Kenya., women who have been landless. They are landless when they are born and they are landless when they are buried. I am talking for them for the first time ever and may be talking for them for the last time because it is possible that we we in this generation will never write another Constitution, before we go. My names are Orie Rogo Manduli, Political Delegate number 594, watu wengi, Ford People. Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Go ahead. Hon. Delegate Orie Rogo Manduli: Hapa, I am repeating again, the parties have only two women, one of them in Labour Caroline Ng’ang’a and myself and we are over 40 parties represented, nearly 45 parties, so you can just imagine how marginalized we are. Now I am talking of a very emotive issue and I am begging the Chair in advance, Chair, please realizing that I am talking for all these millions of women and may be we will never talk again in the next 200 years, kindly allow me a bit more time today. Now marginalization of women in general starts and ends with land, the ownership of it. In this case the complete non-ownership of land. A girl is born to a man and woman and she is a daughter and she has no land and no claim to any, in the most African Societies here. This girl has no land till one day maybe, she gets married and then she goes and squats on her husband land and works and toils on this land. Now, should this man die before her, she becomes immediately landless again, because the land is then entitled to her son who actually even threatens to evict her from this land. A son who does not even respect her, because she has no land to pass on and will never have any land to pass on. A son who talks to her as if she is nothing, because she has no land to pass on, she is only squatting on the land of the father, and her own son who she gave birth has the audacity to tell her that. A son who can easily disinherit her if he marries too many women and the land is not enough, he just tells the mother go back to where she came from, “because this land my father left for me”. Now this mother who is being told to go does not have a place. Her father does not recognize her as a land owner where she came from, the minute she is married, she is a stranger in the home she was born in, her father regards her as a stranger, her brothers regard her as stranger, the wives to her brother regard her as a stranger and she is just a stranger, she is always in between and she is always at the mercy of men. If she is not at the mercy of her father, she is at the mercy of her brothers. If she is not at the mercy of her brothers, she is at the mercy of her husband. If she is not at the mercy of her husband she is at the mercy her son. This woman is always at the mercy of some man all her life, from birth to death. This woman does not know where she will be buried, this girl who is born, she does not know where she will be buried, because eventually she is going to be buried on the land of some man. This woman has no control over her burial grounds and for us Africans burial grounds are very sacred. At death you could find, five, ten men, scrambling over this woman’s body for various reasons, or rejecting her body for various reasons. I am talking now (uproar from the Honourable Delegates) and I am saying that marginalization really begins and ends with land and this is where Affirmative Action has to begin. I am going to talk now, on Chapter 233, are you with me? 1 will also touch 234, 235, 236 and 237. We are talking of land policy. Now land in Kenya is a resource and livelihood. It is a basis of everything in Kenya and this land is a basis of all our hopes and dreams. Even as this girl is being born, she has nothing to look up to, but land is the basis of everything that is Kenyan. (To the Delegates) Gentlemen, please put you cards down because I am still talking and when I finish then you put them up, I intend to talk. I am talking of ownership of land, in 233, but before I go to 233 I am talking about 232, still I am going back, they talk of equitability, that the land should be managed equitably, did you hear that? That it should be managed efficiently, productively and sustainably. How do you manage land equitably when there is no equity when it comes to land as far as women are concerned. Chairman, I begged early, I am not going tobe naughty, I am just asking you to allow me a bit more time. No I am talking of-- Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: We will give you one minute. Hon. Delegate Orie Rogo Manduli: All land here belongs to the people of Kenya, collectively or as individuals. How come the women do not form part of the Kenyan people? What went wrong? Yes, I am talking about a non-Kenyan citizen, and as far as I am concerned, non-Kenyan citizens should not own our land. They can lease it, use it for a period, be it fifty years, ninety-nine years or even ten years but ownership of land in Kenya should be left to Kenyans. Now, any land acquired by any mechanism of ownership they say, should be protected. And I am saying it is very important that private ownership be protected, because without private ownership being protected, it is going to be impossible to do any business. Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Thank you, thank you. Interjection Hon. Delegate Orie Rogo Manduli: But a private ownership is only protected after checking-- Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: The Honourable Delegate I am sorry, we gave you an extra one-minute. Hon. Delegate Orie Rogo Manduli: Chairman, one more minute-- Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: I have given you one more. Hon. Delegate Orie Rogo Manduli: That the acquisition of that land in the first place was proper. When the land was not properly acquired, I don’t see why a demand of ownership protection should even begin to happen. Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Thank you. Hon. Delegate Orie Rogo Manduli: I am talking of land, there was a piece of land in Keiyo Valley, a thousand hectares, which was being grabbed to be preserved by an individual just for themselves. Hon. Delegate Norman Nyaga: Honourable Delegate please, let us respect the Chair, I have given you more time and we have more people to speak. |