Second Interview: Martin Honey, Post-Auschwitz, 26th April 2005
R: Ok so if you could tell me a bit about the pictures.
M: Right Jewish Quarter Krakow
R: I think its on a slide show so it might go too fast
M: I guess you can stop it and go one by one
R: Yeah, right ah
M: These are incredible pieces of kit aren’t they?
R: They are (laughs) right, apart from when they break
(Pause for sorting out the computer slide show)
Martin: Ah there you go
(more sorting out irrelevant)
M: Ok this one and the previous one
town square Jewish Quarter,
this is the Jewish area of Krakow,
that’s a Jewish museum, bookshop, restaurant,
a Jewish café there,
Synagogue here,
we’re just catching a flavour of,
this is an area that was cleaned out by the Nazi’s,
a Jewish Ghetto really and it really
really hasn’t changed that much, not much rebuilding really.
Ria: So have they kind of reclaimed it then?
Martin: Um sure
Ria: OK, That’s good ok;
do you want to press the button
so you can go through them?
M: Yeah um
R: That’s there we are, so you just have to press the thing at the top
Martin: That’s this one
R: Yeah
M: OK
Main square Krakow just sightseeing
here’s a market with all sorts of wonderful things in,
very inexpensive chess set for ten pounds
in red and white wood beautiful
uh yeah a pleasant way to spend an afternoon
that’s in the centre of the city
same square,
that looks like me there standing pathetically
or maybe it’s not
um I don’t know who the statue is off the top of my head
but that’s the lace market area behind,
so that’s the sort of tourist centre of Krakow,
(p) that’s a sort of old building that looked very impressive in the square
in this main square,
it must be a church I think,
I just liked the architecture and the vivid blue sky
you know terracotta and blue,
uh local musicians on a Saturday afternoon in the square,
no really reason to take it other than to capture a flavour of some traditional dress that they are wearing
and the market hall just behind,
town square again, with a digi camera you can just,
R: (unrecognised)
M: yeah this was a big, big square
and you know with hundreds of photographs on a digi camera you can just
R: Um I love them
M: Uh yes this is just a view of a tram
there are trams everywhere,
rattling and creaking and.
Ria: Nearly running you over (laughs)
Martin: Yeah,
public transport very very cheap
ok (p) Auschwitz first visit,
um it’s come out, (surprise)
we were trying to get the writing,
trying to catch a flavour of you know,
all through the place,
they say there is no bird song, but they didn’t tell me (p)
somebody didn’t tell me that until I was on the way home
and I can’t remember whether I heard bird song or not (laughs)
Ria: It’s one of the like cliché, if you like things that they say,
That everybody says that they go there and there’s no birds singing
Martin: Yeah,
it might be because there is a hawk around or something (laughs),
um again snapshoting just taking snap shots
just to try and pick up a visual image of the place um,
this last sentence you know it’s pretty
sums it up quite well
(points to last sentence on board).
The lucky ones appear to be the ones that were gassed when they arrived,
gate you know dodo,
We’ve got some better pictures through here of the gate,
you know ‘freedom through work’
which is you know the biggest lie they could have told them,
that’s the main way in.
I don’t think the camp was flattened (p)
so it’s sensitive restoration of what was there,
I think Belsen was flattened by the British uh,
just over 60 years ago to the week
and um there’s not much left in terms of buildings,
but I don’t think this was destroyed, the Russians took it
and I think it was more or less kept intacked
and then tidied up over the years really.
Ria: Do you get that as you go through?
Martin: Um you get the feeling that it’s (p) um
for the most part original
but tidied up you know the barbed wire that would have rusted has been replaced
and um its pretty authentic
it feels pretty authentic,
um I can’t see, I can’t find anything written on (p) it being destroyed and rebuilt
and that sort of thing so (p)
yeah.
Ria: Yes, I was looking at the guide that you gave me
and the only thing that I could find in there was
that they’d rebuilt one of the gas chambers,
but the other place, Auschwitz II isn’t, that has been quite blow up and things.
Martin: Yes Birkenhau,
oh sure when you, we can talk about that,
that comes in latter in the slide show and is a different baby anyway
you know,
it’s bigger and it has a slightly different function
but I think was wreaked by the Nazi’s as they knew
as the Russians were coming they tried to destroy chunks of it
and succeeded to some extent,
so more of that is recreated
and that’s a couple of minutes away,
Birkenau I think it’s called,
it’s really quite close to Auschwitz,
which isn’t Auschwitz in Polish it has actually got another name.
Ria: Um, it begins with an O doesn’t it…?
Martin: Yeah, yeah some sort of Slavic unpronounceable,
so these are just the blocks in Auschwitz,
which are quite solid really
and in them in a lot of them there are exhibitions,
you know things like piles of human hair
and the canisters with the cyclone gas in
and piles of glasses and piles of shoes
and in some of them they’ve left the sort of sanitary arrangements
and the sort of bathrooms if you can call them that
uh and in each block are sort of cells
where people were herded in on you know sort of four high sleeping arrangements,
I mean actually quite comfortable from the outside you know,
sorry in it
Ria: Yes from the outside they look like halls of residence,
M: They do don’t they yeah
R: The sun is shining
Martin: Yeah,
this is sort of in one of the main avenues of the camp, uh
the guide in English is very good
you know I think has become practiced over time
and she was um (p) some of the things that she said were pretty horrific
you know she knew how to wind up the crowd, if you like (laughs)
there were a group of us in a party that were shown around by (p) by this lady
and she was very informative you know
and the things she said were pretty awful (p)
yeah so (thoughtful)
Ria: Why do you think she told you the awful things?
Martin: There’s a degree of creating sensation,
sensationalism a little bit going on
I mean when I think back to what she said,
I mean it was probably what happened
but I think it’s almost a script you know,
it’s been scripted
and um it gathers pace in its horror (laughs)
as you come through the camp.
There are parties here of Jewish pilgrims as you can see carrying the flag,
I mean they’re weeping and whaling all over the place,
it was really very crowded, at the bottom of,
ah yeah this is a post in the main avenue where these poor souls were lined up for hours on end,
twenty-four hours often with no food or water,
just for you know a row, a head count or whatever and
so they were saying.
Ria: Did you find that there were lots of pilgrims there?
Martin: Oh absolutely yes,
lots of Jewish people and people in our party,
elderly people who I didn’t know why they were there but
for some reason and they were very upset and
there was a lot of emotion around the place
and some of the Jewish people you know they were desperately upset
we were watching the groups,
we’ll come back to that I think in a minute,
so these are the canisters that contained the gas so they tell us,
with the tops ripped off, and they were chucked in through the roof (p),
that’s actually piles of human hair
behind a glass screen.
Ria: That must be very old.
Martin: Yes and it looks it
I had minor problems with the camera
(Interruption: someone knocking at door)
Martin: watchtower, taken through a cell window
which had had the bars removed,
And all around the camp
there is this double line of barbed wire which was electrified
and beyond that were these watchtowers at fifty meter intervals or less,
um and apparently the inmates often committed suicide by just jumping onto the fence
or were thrown on the fence or whatever,
I mean it looks as if the,
from what we are told
the guards created conflict between the prisoners,
who attacked each other and did terrible things you know,
everything to humiliate and destroy these people’s mental make-up was going on really,
it was absolutely horrific
I mean you kept thinking that the lucky ones were gassed as they arrived.
Ria: That’s a crazy concept
M: Yeah
R: that you are better off dead.
Martin: Yeah, I mean I
one of the saddest things was the
that when they were herded out of wherever they’d come from,
from a Jewish Quarter in some city in Europe somewhere,
um they were told to take enough food for five days
and their precious possessions in one suitcase,
so they arrive at the camp and step of the train
and are told to put their bags down,
they can collect them after they’ve been showered and sanitised and all the rest of it and of course they never see those cases again,
they’re either led away to be killed straight away
or brutalised for months in the camp
but they never see their cases again and you know all sorts of valuables are still there in piles and archives
that were you know were taken from the suitcases
and huge piles of suitcases too,
sort of 1940’s leather with addresses on
and I think that’s terribly sad,
to trick them out of their possessions
and herd them away to be killed and uh ,
yeah so and all through the visit which took a couple of hours
and there’s some addresses on
and you know there were these huge mounds of many hundreds of cases,
Which are obviously authentic, no-one could sort of recreate them.
Ria: No
I think that is the really upsetting thing
that they had no idea and they think that they were just
going somewhere else,
it makes it even worse.
Martin: Um
That’s right,
this is a spot between two blocks,
which is where many many thousands of people were shot
and there’s a sort of layer in front of the brick that absorbs the bullets
and it’s a memorial for people to come and put their flowers and stuff,
um just stand there in this courtyard (p)
was pretty evocative and um
yeah for all sorts of minor misdemeanours they were tortured and shot
and in the block this way there were um
holding cells where these people were cooped up and intimidated for days
until they were actually stood there and shot.
So that’s again Jewish people were weeping and wailing around this area
and you know it had particular significance for those who were pilgrims,
um yes so it was sunshine now
and that looks quite nice really as a block doesn’t it?
Ria: It’s not the typical media image that you see is it?
Martin: No it isn’t
sort of half decent accommodation (laughs),
solidly built.
Ria: But it was different in the insides?
Martin: In the inside are cell blocks,
are rooms really with beds in some of them,
so you could squeeze many many hundreds of people into each area,
grossly overcrowded and herded in really insanitary conditions,
um so the thing that probably made it horrific
was the sheer volume of people that were squeezed in,
uh in a room for a few people you know,
there were literally dozens and dozens apparently,
uh just sort of views of the blocks,
that was a tower where again
you know people who had done some minor misdemeanour were hung up and left to die
and that was at the point were the work parties passed night and morning
and an example to anyone you know,
um sort of the perpetration of cruelty of the worst kind on people
and they were displayed there often still alive and um
yeah one can only guess what that must have done to the other prisoners and um
yeah, (p)
a point where people were made to assemble
and stand for twenty-four hours and all that sort of jiggery-pokery.
That was the gallows were they hung the governor
or whatever he’s called the man in charge of the came
Rudolph something, (P)
R: Hiess?
M: Something this like that Rudolph Hiss, it’s not Rudolph Hess
but just beyond that way is a beautiful large house where he and his wife and loads of children lived.
Ria: Is it still there, the house?
Martin: Yeah it is actually yeah
Um but he,
you know they had sort of everything done for them by the prisoners
and after the war he was tried and sentenced to death
and that was the gallows constructed to hang him
because he could hang and look down at the camp as he was being executed,
that’s why they did it,
you know he was the man in charge of all that death
and finally they court up with him,
I guess 1945-1947,
Actually the 16th of April 1947
so that’s on the fringe of the camp and just around here there are the gas chambers. This is actually in the crematoria,
you know they take you into the gas chambers
and shut the doors and frighten you and (laughs)
and turn the lights out.
Ria: Do they, do they do that gosh?
Martin: Yeah and there are things in the roof which open um
the gas was dropped in, they don’t actually go that far but for an instant they (p)
yeah and I think they were mildly damaged but reconstructed very soon after
so they’re as close to authentic as they can be.
Those are again Jewish wreaths in memorial,
They were the trolleys that the bodies were put on and pushed into crematoria
where they were burnt at massive heat,
um that’s a particular site for pilgrimage,
that’s the crematoria (P)
Uh
Ria: How did that feel when they did that? (p)
Martin: When they shut the door?
Ria: Yes
Martin: Upsetting,
by the time you get to that bit of the tour you are pretty sombre (laughs),
you’re pretty um (p) serious
and um when there are people in the party
who are desperately upset as well,
you know you’re feeling
you’re not far away from being upset yourself,
you know distressed
and so that’s
it isn’t, it’s done pretty gently you know,
and maybe not with all parties
maybe somebody had said
can you shut the door and we’ll see what it feels like
and so they did,
and I would have thought that not all visitors get that,
because this was a specialist tour perhaps,
I would have thought that generally people wandering around
They’re not generally not, they don’t generally shut the door and
And tell them that the shower things are still in the ceiling
In the ceiling
where the gas came out of
and um, they tell you about the procedure
that you know that took place
where they were conned really (p)
and they all have to leave their clothes on
and each is given a hook
and several hundred people were gassed at the same time
and they were given a hook in the changing room,
the auntie room to the chamber,
and they all have to hang their clothes up and be naked
which is really quite a dreadful humiliation for people who are
you know in that point of time
elderly, middle aged men and women all mixed together,
having to strip naked um all sorts of other issues,
and then leave their clothes
they go in for a shower
and then they can come back and reclaim then
and of course they never do
and for some reason they stockpiled the clothes
and other personal items like glasses and stuff
I mean god knows why and much of it found it’s way back to Germany
apparently,
or some of it found it’s way back to Germany
uh then lead into the so called shower block,
where you know instead of a shower the doors were closed and
and um and the gas comes in
and there were images in another book I had which I have to bring in,
of after the gassing takes place the doors are opened
and there’s a pill of bodies
always in the same order
with the weakest and children at the bottom
and the strongest men at the top
as if they’re clawing their way to try and get out
you know in the moments before they all suffocate
um and there’s sort of images in this book
of um
the fairly standard piles of bodies that were a result
from that form of execution
and I think other prisoners,
other Jewish inmates
were employed to um
you know to get them into the crematoria really
and they lived slightly longer
because they were the labourers who burnt the bodies of their country men or whatever,
pretty horrific stuff (laughs).
I mean this is a this is a,
on the way out this path way towards the exit
and outside of the camp proper
I mean this is an illustration of the electric fencing
with its two layers of electric barbed wire,
which makes it virtually impossible to escape.
Ria: It’s just strange that it’s all still there,
like seeing the pictures of that.
Martin: I mean the guide says that the pillars are original,
That that the pillars
and most of the and most of the insulators are,
they’re obviously replaced the wiring
and it’s not plugged in anymore (ironic laughter)
I think at night this all lights up with the lamps,
which makes it even more eerie and um (p)
ok, we’ve actually left Auschwitz and we’re in Birkenhau
now
which is a much bigger camp,
this is the rail line in through the gate,
this is the main gate.
Ria: The famous rail line
Martin: Yeah
and inside there’s a,
there it is again the gate,
and you’re allowed to go up to the top of the watchtower which sits on top of that
and gives you a view of the camp,
yeah this is just a view of the exterior looking in,
to give you some idea of the scale of it,
its huge and there wooden blocks rather than um stone built like Auschwitz
much more temporary
much more flimsy
much colder and um
part of the camp that was never reconstructed
was flattened and left flat
um these are the sort of foundations for blocks
which have not been you know they haven’t replaced them of course,
they’ve just left the foundations um
and again looking way down into this huge
and looking way down into this area,
central area with the rail line which um
which comes into the middle
and a huge train would stop
and they could all disembark into the middle of this camp.
um
these are the wooden (p) the wooden um the wooden huts,
outside again
this is interior of wooden hut,
not a very good picture
but you can just about see the sort of benching where they were all herded into sleep and there might have a thousand people in a hut
all on top of each other with no space.
R: That’s unbelievable
M: Um conditions of the most awful kind,
no lavatories
um just all pushed in for x hours every night
most of them ill with dysentery or diarrhoea
and you know
it must have been absolutely unbearable,
you know four layers of bedding
and in the winter
you know for six months the climate is awful,
you know it’s cold and below freezing in the night,
and um (p)
there is some form of primitive heating here,
which is like a
um some sort of,
some sort of what’s the word
some sort of fire would be lit somewhere
and it would send hot air
but you know often it wasn’t working
or there was no fuel.
a toilet block which is partly reconstructed,
um part of the desperate degradation that went on
through this sort of system,
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