ד Hilchos Nida Rav Baruch Simon shlit

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שיעור #26 (Packet 19a) – 1.12.09

More about 7 Nekiyim
End of last שיעור mention that שו"ע quotes two deios: A) 1 or 7 (or any day) B)1 and 7, but in the yesh omrim says ein l’hakeil. Do we go w/ the stam (as usual) or the ein l’hakeil?

Many morei horaa are machmir like the yesh omrim, and if woman doesn’t have 1 and 7, cannot go to the mikva. R’ Abadie thinks one can be meikil and holds that in certain scenarios can allow 1 or 7 and would read שו"ע that lichatchila ein l’hakeil.

R’ Simon mentioned two maasim that were relevant to this din:

1- Kala who knew she needed to do hefsek but didn’t know she needed to do bedikos and found out just before the 7^th day. R’ Simon relied on R’ Abadie and allowed her to just do 7.

2- Woman who was having procedure done which would make her bleed. Told her to make the appointment for day of hefsek tahara, so she would get a clean one, but then clearly wouldn’t get day 1 bedika, said could rely on only getting day 7.

I. Shitas Achronim on this issue

A. Beis Yosef 196:5- Since there were many rishonim who were mesupak (Smag and others), ein l’hakeil by s/thing which is safeik issur kareis.

But why is this issur kareis? Only keeping 7 nekiyim as chumra dirabanan?

 Some explain that אה"נ this is only dirabanan, but since these dinim are being fashioned after doraysas treat them the same way doraysas are treated.

(I asked in שיעור maybe this is chashash doraysa b/c s/times women really are zavos gedolos so have to treat all cases like doraysa? R’ Simon seemed to think this might be what R’ Telushkin had in mind when said that if know for sure her 7 nekiyim are dirabanan then can be meikil, but otherwise chosheish for the doraysa, but wasn’t so excited about the haara).

1. Chavas Daas: Thinks it is clear that Beis Yosef and others think that the chiyuv bedika is midoraysa. Based on diyuk in gm Nida 69B.

B. שו"ת Binyan Olam YD 42- First of all, בעה"מ says lichatchila don’t even need more than one and seven. And adds in more sfeikos and comes out that if she was toveles certainly would be meikil and even if she wasn’t toveles yet would be meikil.
C. שו"ת Chassam Sofer YD 178- Woman didn’t do bedika on day 7 and they already had tashmish, and husband is nervous that maybe she was lazy and didn’t even do day 1.

- Not happy w/ this couple, but anyways thought that once they were already together could remain together. (Not quite as big a kula as the binyan olam)

D. שו"ת Ohr Yitzchak YD 31- Quotes the Chassam Sofer and the Binyan Olam and says women these days are only zavos dirabanan, so can be meikil.
E. שו"ת Node B’Yehuda Mk YD 46- Spoke about chorin usdakin and ראב"ד thought that l’baala thought that didn’t need it, רמב"ן made chiluk hthat only need it by hefsek tahara not for 7 nekiyim. NB”Y quotes the רמב"ן and suggests that if did a moch that went into the night, can count as your day 1 b/c רש"י holds that bedika b’layla is a good bedika and assuming like the רמב"ן that don’t need chorin usdakin.
1. Yabia Omer (R’ Ovadia) 16- Doesn’t want to go against the ein l’hakeil of the שו"ע, even though rov rishonim hold like Rav. However, if have first day bedika like the case of the Node B’Yehuda, this would be enough to satisfy shitas מחבר.
F. Chesed L’Avraham YD 62- Could argue that only time need techilasan and sofan was by women those days who didn’t wait so long to do their 7 nekiyim b/c for them it was only after 3 days of bleeding, but our women always wait 5 days, so already less blood there. And quotes בעה"מ that nowadays only keep 7 nekiyim b/c of bnos yisrael hechmiru, can rely on Rav. (didn’t see whole teshuva)
G. Shaarei Moshe YD 5- Also says that din of ein l’hakeil in שו"ע is only lichatchila. But bidieved and shaas hadchak can rely on 1^st deia.
H. Aruch HaShulchan 196:25-26- Says he doesn’t understand why the מחבר paskened like the Smag and others who were mesupak about whether to pasken like Rav or R’ Chanina when they are so many rishonim who were positive we should pasken like Rav. Limaaseh he says chalila to stray from the מחבר. However, for women who are having trouble getting clean bedikos b/c they have makos and the like, can tell them like the ikar hadin, to do hefsek and 1 bedika. [ maybe a sniff l’hakeil in other shaas hadchak situations?]
II. Are Bedikos Doraysa or Dirabanan (Addition to last שיעור, but connected to this one)?

A. שו"ת Sheilas David YD 3- Thinks that all bedikos are really just dirabanan b/c once did hefsek tahara and during 7 nekiyim she paid attention to notice she wasn’t bleeding would be enough midoraysa.

B. Chassam Sofer YD 177: Thinks that meikar hadin, once woman has done hefsek tahara, if she would have sat and paid attention and noticed that she isn’t having hargashos, etc. (some type of meditation-like paying attention) that would be fine if did it once. But instead of doing this women do bedikos. But says can’t do this by hefsek tahara b/c can’t sit and not feel it opening b/c it’s already open. Therefore, those who talk about bedikos being doraysa, this is only for woman who isn’t paying attention to herself. Mashma that for a woman who pays attention, bedikos are not doraysa, only midirabanan at best.

III. In what scenarios would we allow a woman to do less than every day lichatchila?
A. שו"ת Shem Aryeh 39- Woman who is staining. Can we tell her to skip some bedikos? Chalila L’hakeil. B/c only time give this kula is by woman who has some type of bleeding that we know is not from the makor (maka, etc.) [b/c then we know the bedikos aren’t bringing dam not from the makor, so better not to do the bedika at all]. However, when the woman is having kesamim from the makor, never have such a kula. Just the opposite, have to do bedikos in order to make sure she is clean.

- R’ Abadie and R’ Elyashiv say this way as well. And limaaseh, acc to poskim who think that need bedika whenever there is a kesem, certainly no kula for woman whose problem is kesamim).

B. Marcheshes 35- quotes Shem Aryeh and does not agree. B/c midoraysa she’s tehora b/c she’s not having hargashos. But אה"נ if she’s having a reiya/hargasha then can’t let her skip days. And says that since this is a woman who sometimes goes a number of days w/out seeing kesamim at all, so maybe she’s not seeing at all in the days she is skipping, so less of a chashash.
C. Chavas Daas 196:3- Even though usually dam w/out hargasha is nothing, but during 7 nekiyim kesem will be soser midoraysa real 7 nekiyim b/c 7 nekiyim have higher standard.

*We don’t assume this way, and we give same kulas to kesamim during 7 nekiyim.

D. Aruch HaShulchan 196:25-26 (above): Women who are having trouble getting clean bedikos b/c they have makos and the like, can tell them like the ikar hadin, to do hefsek and 1 bedika.
E. Igros Moshe YD 2:78- Woman who has a lot of trouble getting clean bedikos, can let her do only bedikos 1 and 7 l’chatchila b/c this case was a shaas hadchak and have klal in general that shaas hadchak k’dieved dami (Have to know what’s a shaas hadchak, probably something chronic).
F. Dagul Merivava 196:4- Lashon of smag (1 and 7) is that shouldn’t have more than 5 days between bedikos. Im kein, even the machmirim would agree that any of the middle days and 7 would be just as good b/c will always have less than 5 days between bedikos.

1. Pischei Teshuva points out that Node B’Yehuda seems to contradict himself in the teshuvos:

a. Node B’Yehuda YD 128- What about woman who does 1, 3, and 10? Says it doesn’t work, only has 10. But if she did 1, 3, and 9, then can go to mikva that night b/c can count 3 as day 1 and 9 as day 7. But 1, 3, and 8, now have 2 and 8 being 1 and 7, and the 3 is like day 2, since didn’t have more than 5 days btwn bedikos, day 3 kept things alive and we’re all good. But if would just have had 3 and 8, wouldn’t be ok, sounds like requires day 1 no matter what, and day 3 just kept it alive.
G. שו"ת Maharash 4:2- Real big shaas hadchak b/c was going to get divorced if she was never tehora, so was meikil to follow Rav.
IV. Hesech HaDaas during 7 nekiyim (Meil Tzedaka) and din of cheresh/shota

Mishna 13b- woman who is chereshes or shota, her friends do bedikos for her.

- But if can’t have hesech hadaas, then what good are the bedikos of the friends?

חזו"א uses this gm as raya that the whole idea of hesech hadaas isn’t an issue. B/c if it was a problem then chereshes could never be tehora.

שיעור #27 (Packet 19b)- 1.14.09

7 Nekiyim- Assorted Topics: Bedika at night and Rechitza during 7 nekiyim
- Since only coming to ascertain that she is continuing to be clean, why should it matter whether I check by day or by night? (Hefsek tahara is more mistaber that has to be by day b/c need 7 full clean days, so have to know she’s clean before the 7 days begin)
I. Bedika at Night

(By zava doraysa, if saw monday, just need some of Tuesday to be clean and can go to mivka Tuesday during the day)

A. Gm Pesachim 81A – When woman becomes zava gedola do we say that limafreia we know that she was zava gedola the whole time or only say she is zava gedola from now on? נ"מ: Being included in Korban Pesach vs needing Pesach Sheini. R’ Yossi: Mikan Ulihaba. Gm asks that acc to R’ Yossi, when she sees on day 2, she already had miktzas hayom from day 1, so day 2 is really a new reiya, and same thing for day 3, so how will R’ Yossi ever have zava gedola? 1- Has constant flow for three days.

2- Bleeds two days in a row through bein hashmashos, so now have bleeding during beginning or end of all three days. Never started a sefira.

1. רש"י asks: Why didn’t gm give case where she saw three nights in a row b/c then if saw mon night can’t start sefira until wed morn but already saw tues night? רש"י answers: Ela mai, see that can start sefiros at night and will have miktzas hayom k’kulo when the next night begins (2 chidushim).

2. תוס' quotes רש"י’s question and his answer. And says רש"י is wrong, can only have sefira by day. However, can say miktzas hayom k’kulo even at the end of the day, so even if she would see three nights, since the end of each day ends b’tahara, that counts as a miktzas hayom k’kulo.

a. תוס' Nida 69A d”h Shiva- says no requirement of sefiros mamash at beginning of day b/c then would have to wake up at alos e/ day to do bedikos. B/c can’t do bedika at night b/c sefiras layla eina sefira.

*תוס' assume that you are yotzei your sefira by doing a bedika. So if no sefira at night then no bedika at night either.

B. רשב"א Thbk 25b- Ohr hayom yafe l’bedika shel bayis.
C. Sidrei Tahara 196:19- Questions the link between sefira and bedika. Maybe it’s taluy on machlokes between 2 deios in מחבר 196:4. If need 1 and 7, the bedikos are the bookends and k’ilu counted all days inbetween. However, if only need any day, nothing about sefira, just need to continue the chezkas tahara. Im kein, if you hold it’s a din in sefira, and need 1 and 7, then has to be by day, and would be miakeiv even bdieved. But if din in chazaka, only need one day, maybe can be at night too. And even the רשב"א who says it has to be bayom, has to say that this is b/c yafe ohr hayom to defend his shita. B/c lishitaso that he thinks only need one bedika, bedikos are not a din in sefira, so he should have said bedika at night is fine. Ela mai, better during day b/c it’s light then.
D. Pardes Rimonim Pesicha to Siman 196: Argues w/ Sidrei Tahara and further questions the link between bedika and sefira from gm nida 30A where R’ Akiva argues that need sefurim lifaneinu. And he is the only one who holds that b/c he requires every day even bidieved. But acc to R’ Yehuda and R’ Eliezer no requirement of sefurim lifaneinu, no matter whether hold like Rav or R’ Chanina (w/in R’ Eliezer), no one requires it. Im kein, everyone should allow bedika at night. And says halacha l’maaseh that women can do these two bedikos as night as well.
E. Lechem V’Simla 196:5 – Case of woman who has some issue that she can’t do many bedikos (staining, etc.) and quotes שו"ת Shev Yaakov who told this woman to do hefsek tahara and nothing else, and explains that this is b/c he was relying on her moch dachuk to be bedikas yom rishon (like Node B’Yehuda). And gives same svara that just trying to maintain her chezkas tahara, not connected to the sefira at all. And thinks that even תוס' who do connect the two, only trying to be miyashev even acc to R’ Akiva. But אה"נ acc to R’ Eliezer, even acc to R’ Chanina, wouldn’t require bedikos by day and can do bedikos at night.
F. חזו"א Hilchos Nida 92 – No one ever mentioned that it has to be davka by day, and especially if just need to pay attention, like chassam sofer, doesn’t matter when you pay attention, night or day.
G. רמ"א 196:4- Bedikos should be done l’ohr hayom and not l’ohr haner, but bidieved it works l’ohr haneir as well.
- Generally try to do the bedika by day, but more room to be meikil by bein hashmashos here than by hefsek tahara.
II. Bathing during 7 nekiyim

- Maybe will wash away the dam and then we don’t know for sure that there wasn’t dam there, bedikos aren’t telling you anything.

A. ב"ח 196:1- Found from R’ Zanvil Katz that he was given a bedika by woman who had just be rochetzes in chamin, even the white kesem was tamei b/c assume that the hot water turned the dam white. 25 yrs later, another chacham came and showed me that R’ Yaakov Margolios from R’ Dovid Lanzhut to be machmir in these types of kesamim, and so now it became minhag of women not to go to the merchatz during 7 nekiyim.
B. ט"ז 198:1- Talking about colors of bedikos. And says that white that is not leaninig towards red is mutar. However, quotes ב"ח and says dvarim temuhim heim, and not even clear who this information is coming from, and nothing like this in the gm. And gm itself said that black is אסור b/c it changes, should have talked about white. So if want to be machmir, be machmir for yourself, but shouldn’t pasken that way for others.
C. Livushei Mordechai 123- Brings rayas that no issur rechitza during 7 nekiyim. B/c רש"י writes in שבת 13 that women used to go two times to the mikva, and would go after 7 and then after 12, so turns out she’s going in the middle of the 7 nekiyim. And then says could say that the machmirim only meant it to stay there for an extended period, hour or 2 or 3. And even not to do that would only be zehirus b’alma. And maybe this is only a problem in hot water, not in cold water.
D. R’ Vozner – Whole discussion is only about baths, no issue w/ showers (see inside).
III. What about really cleaning herself inside well during 7 nekiyim?

*Before hefsek tahara, we encourage woman to clean out if she wants to, and can do so even just before the hefsek tahara. But this is not ok during 7 nekiyim b/c then you are undermining 7 nekiyim.

(שו"ת VaYomer Yitzchak: Thinks it may totally knock out your bedika yom shvii if do it some day in the middle b/c what is it telling you?)
But what if woman needs it l’tzorech refua?
A. שו"ת Maharsham 40- meikil in this case. Since woman has already done hefsek tahara, she is b’chezkas tahara. (Also, she is doing bedikos in the morning which are coming out fine, so if has to do the washing out not worried).
B. Igros Moshe YD 1:94 – Woman who has to wash inside well for medical reasons. Thinks she should do the washing after the morning bedika. And if Dr. thinks she should do it at night, even though will mess up the daytime bedika, thinks that should try to do it after the bedika by day 1 and 7, and if not, then can even do it at night every night.

What’s the svara? R’ Moshe wants to connect it to machlokes 1 and 7, vs any day. If hold 1 and 7, do 1 to check there was nothing last night, and at end of day to check for today. Im kein, the washing should be אסור b/c no matter when you do it you are undermining the bedika. But if hold that just need one, just to be muchzak, so if clean now, chazaka continues. Im kein, since we have 1^st deia in מחבר and this is tzorech, will be meikil.

- R’ Abadie: Generally say ein mivatlin issur lichatchila (k’ein this idea), so woman who knows she stains and decides to wash to come out clean, that’s a problem. But woman who is being honest, only a chashash anyways, so can be meikil.
 But in a regular case, woman wants to clean herself out, we would not allow this. However, regular external cleanings like when woman takes a shower is מותר.
C. Pischei Teshuvos: Woman whose veses comes during 7 nekiyim, if veses layla should do separate bedika at night for veses. And if forgets, can rely on her 7 nekiyim bedikos.

**Also mentions: Traveling to Israel during 7 nekiyim: Go to mikva at end of the day wherever you are.

שיעור #28 (Packet 20)- 1.19.09

More Haaros about 7 Nekiyim
I. White clothing during 7 nekiyim- Why?

 What are we trying to accomplish during 7 nekiyim? Do we not want her to be saved from kesamim or do we just want to be able to see if there is any dam coming, but will still use regular halachos of kesamim? Have seen Chavas Daas that kesem tamei during 7 nekiyim is doraysa משא"כ by rest of month when only dirabanan. Acc to him understand that can’t have regular kulas, but what about acc to e/one else? נ"מ: Wearing a pad during 7 nekiyim

(Nitei Gavriel: thinks shouldn’t wear a pad during 7 nekiyim for this reason).
A. Beis Yosef 196:3- Quotes Mordechai and Rokeach: When she stops seeing, she should do a hefsek tahara, and wear a white garment so that if she would see more, she would see it on her clothes, and the sheets should be white or clean from kesamim.
B. Ohr Zarua Hilchos Nida- Also mentions wearing white clothing and using white sheets. Doesn’t explain svara.
C. Beiur HaGra 196:10- This inyan comes from gm שבת 13a, where call the 7 nekiyim yimei libunayich.
D. Chachmas Adam 117:8- Even though usually let woman wear tzivonim, during 7 nekiyim don’t allow it, so that if she would see dam it will be nikar. And woman who is posheia and doesn’t wear livanim, raui l’konsa.
E. Ohr Yitzchak 29:7 Nekiyim- Woman can wear garments that aren’t מק"ט, like pads b/c 7 nekiyim are not there to remove all kulas of kesamim, ela coming to be mivarer that there isn’t real reiyas dam w/ hargasha, and reiyas dam is more nikar w/ white.

*This is even w/ no tzorech at all. Minhag Yisrael is not generally this way.

However, R’ Abadie thinks this is better than telling a woman to wear tzivonim in case of tzorech b/c this way still being mikayeim inyan of livanim.
F. שו"ע 196:3:

1. מחבר: On day that she does hefsek tahara, she should wear checked garment which doesn’t have kesamim, and put on sheets that are clear of kesamim and begin counting shiva nekiyim from next day.

2. רמ"א: Minhag Kasher for woman to wash herself and wear white, and enough just to wash oso makom, v’chein nohagin. And B’shaas hadchak (i.e. going on a trip and doesn’t have livanim) can count 7 nekiyim as long as her garment is checked and clean of kesamim.

*R’ Abadie: Woman who doesn’t have tzivonim, can just take tissue and line the undergarment w/ it to gain the maala.

II. White sheets

- Quoted in Mordechai and Rokeach. However, in time of chazal they didn’t wear undergarments to sleep. The minhag of Chassidim is to be makpid on white sheets.

A. R’ Abadie writes that no need for white sheets, etc. if she’s wearing undergarments that are white.
B. שו"ת Shevet HaLevi YD 3:129- Since nowadays ppl wear tight undergarments and therefore the need for white sheets is not meikar hadin. However, chalila l’hakeil baze.
C. Badei HaShulchan 197:3 Biurim- Also agrees that meikar hadin no need for white/clean sheets as long as she is wearing tight-fitting undergarment. However, minhag is for sheets to be clean and white. מ"מ, b’shaas hadchak can be somech on fact that she is wearing undergarments.
D. Igros Moshe YD 4:17?:27- Tov shetasim white sheets nowadays b/c tight is not always so tight, so better to keep white sheets just in case.
E. Igros Moshe YD 4:17?:28-29- No need for the tissues she wipes w/ to be white, enough w/ the bedikos we have. And if woman goes swimming no need to have the part of bathing suit by oso makom be white, but should be clean.
*R’ Simon tells chassanim they do not need to be makpid on white sheets, unless there is minhag like this in their family.
III. Tisha B’av and 7 Nekiyim

A. Darkei Moshe או"ח 551:6- Quotes R’ Avraham MiPrague, Rokeach: Woman can wash her white garments even during shavua shechal bo. And from Maharil, Aguda, that woman can be rochetzes and toveles (presumably during shavua shechal bo).

B. רמ"א 551:3- We are machmir for restrictions of shavua shechal bo starting from ר"ח, except for tzorech mitzva, dhaynu woman who needs to wash her white clothes and sheets. However, on tisha b’av shouldn’t wear white, just clean garment.

1. מ"ב (31) – And if she doesn’t have, many achronim allow her to wear even white (presumably this is heter to wear freshly laundered clothing).

*Also, discussion whether we really mean white, or just naki from kesamim.
IV. 1^st Three days of 7 Nekiyim

A. Sefer HaTruma Hilchos Nida 92- woman w/ maka, not sure if motzi dam or not, can’t be tole, if know it’s motzi dam, then can be tole. But if its yimei haveses, then cannot be tole b/c then woman will never become temeia.

*Continues, but first three days we don’t have telia b’maka b/c have to know for sure that the dam has stopped. So once have three days totally clean, now can be tole that whatever dam we see could have come from s/thing else.

(R’ Simon had a maaseh w/ woman who had maka and then became time to go off pill and get period, but saw same amount of dam as before, maybe she was skipping her period b/c of the pill. R’ Abadie thought could not be meikil based on this idea).

B. Trumas HaDeshen 249- Kesem less than gris during 1^st three days. Thinks Sefer Hatruma only meant it in terms of kesem more than gris can’t be tole on maka, but can still be tole on gris b/c then women will never be able to be tehora.
C. Darkei Moshe 196:1*- Only time don’t have telia during 1^st three days is maka that’s eina yadua shemotzia dam, but if yadua that it’s motzi dam, then we are tole even in first 3 days b/c never see a chiluk in poskim between kesem found bimei sefirasa vs other times, so if would usually be tole can be tole during first 3 days as well. And could be that even the Trumas HaDeshen is only saying this l’chumra b’alma, not meikar hadin b/c says that should be machmir when efshar lizaheir which is not a lashon of ikar hadin.
D. שו"ע 196:10- רמ"א: Yesh omrim that need first 3 days to be nekiyim ligamrei. However, we are tole on kesem pachos mikgris v’od, and if woman has maka sheyadu shemotzia dam.

1. ש"ך 13- Has big problem w/ the רמ"א, and has many rayos why the רמ"א is wrong, and even if yadua shemotzi dam still can’t be tole during 1^st 3 days. Only time have kula is if know that dam is really coming out of it all the time (like mukas schin). And seems to agree that will be tole by kesem pachos mik’gris v’od.

*R’ Abadie thinks this sefer hatruma is not meikar hadin, chumra. However, for hefsek tahara doesn’t think can be tole b’maka (even sending her to bodeket won’t help). R’ Dovid Feinstein thought maybe if woman does bedika and says she scratched herself w/ her fingernail during the hefsek tahara then could be tole. There are morei horaa on both sides, some are more machmir during first 3 days, and some are not.

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