שיעור #23 (Packet 17)- 12.17.08
Waiting 5 days
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We always require a woman to wait 5 days from the time she begins bleeding until she can begin 7 nekiyim, whether or not she is actually bleeding for that amount of time (obviously, if still bleeding for more than 5 days, have to wait for the dam to stop).
I. Source of this halacha- Poletes Shichvas Zera
- Whole din of poletes shichvas zera comes from how long they were poreish before Matan Torah in order to be tehorim at that time (see first Magen Avraham in Hilchos Shavuos).
A. Mishna שבת 86A- We know that shichvas zera that comes out of a woman is mitamei her even on the 3rd day after she has had tashmish from pasuk in Shemos: “Heyu nechonim l’shlosha yamim al tigshu el isha”.
1. Gm- R’ Elazar ben Azarya: Woman who is poletes shichvas zera on 3rd day is tehora, s/times it’s been 4, 5, or 6 onos. R’ Akiva: Always need at least 5 onos. Chachamim- always need 6 complete onos, which will come out to 3 or 4 days they have to wait from the time the bleeding begins (assuming they had tashmish just before she begins to bleed) b/c if had tashmish Sunday by day and she began to bleed right away, even though Sunday is day 1 for bleeding, in terms of poletes shichvas zera, Monday will be day one (first full ona will be Sunday evening).
a. גר"א has Girsas haGeonim- 3 full onos.
b. רמ' Avos Tumos 5:11,12,13– Also has this as 3 onos.
B. Gm Nida 33A- Does poletes shichvas zera knock out [one day of] the 7 nekiyim?
- But how can we even have this metzius? In order to be zava gedola had to have been אסורה to her husband already for 3 days?
1. רש"י- אה"נ, talking about woman who was mishameish b’issur when she was zava.
2. תוס'- Could even be b’heter, b/c even after three days of zivus could still be w/in the 6 onos. Or could be talking about b’zman haze that even seeing a kesem treat her like a zava, so if had tashmish w/in 3 days would have 7 nekiyim now [we don’t pasken this way, רמ"א says always have 5 and 7, even by kesem].
- Gm continues, and wants to know if this tuma is tumas maga or reiya (from being emitted)? Assumes that if it’s a reiya it will be soser the 7 nekiyim, but if only tumas maga, won’t be soser. Even if it is a reiya, it will only knock out that day. Don’t have to start counting from the beginning. So gm has machlokes between Rava and e/one else, Rava holds that it’s only maga, and gm answers that it is a reiya and will be soser one day. Gm attacks Rava and he doesn’t respond.
C. Gm Nida 41B- Also quotes this machlokes and assumes that it is soser one day, against Rava.
1. רא"ש Nida 4:1- gm rejects Rava and he has no answer so we assume not like him, assume shichvas zera is soser.
*Acc to רש"י, we would say that a woman who sees dam nida may not begin her 7 nekiyim until the 5th day after she began to bleed. However, many rishonim understand that this din of 4 days will not apply to most cases:
2. ריטב"א Nida 42A-
a. Quotes ר"ת: The whole gm is talking about a man who is a zav who is boel this woman and regular shichvas zera came out of him. Since there could be some ziva (which is tumas reiya) mixed in w/ his zera, nervous it will come out of her and be soser her 7 nekiyim. However, this din will not apply to woman who had tashmish w/ regular man (tahor). Im kein, no din of 4 days acc to ר"ת unless the man is a zav. Also quoted by the Yeraim.
b. quotes ראב"ד: Din of poletes shichvas zera is only in terms of taharos, but no din whatsoever when it comes to issura l’baala.
3. רמ' IB 11:14- those who have minhag to wait 7 days before counting 7 nekiyim is a mistaken psak, ela whenever she stops seeing dam she starts counting 7 nekiyim. No din of 4 days either (could be b/c whole din poletes shichvas zera is only doraysa when it comes to zava doraysa, and since we’re only accepting it midirabanan for our women b/c saying they’re safeik zavos, then maybe don’t bring along all the pratim from zava).
(a) רמ' Avos haTuma 5:11-14: Holds from this din that it is soser one day, but only for a zava doraysa.
4. רשב"א Thb (Bedika/Sefira 26A) - Not applicable in terms of issur l’baala, only issue in terms of taharos.
5. מאירי Nida 4th perek- only time would be choshesh for this din is if she felt the shichvas zera come out, but otherwise no reason to be choshesh.
6. רמב"ן Hilchos Nida 2:8 – Thinks we do hold from this din, but only in a situation where woman stayed in bed the whole time after the tashmish (in which case we know for sure that all the zera has not yet come out of her) do we have to worry about it (based on the gm 42A).
**This machlokes rishonim is also connected to Gm Nida 37A which paskens that dam coming from after childbirth is not soser b/c only davar hagorem tumas shiva is soser. So many rishonim assume that since shichvas zera isn’t davar hagorem won’t be soser. However, others assume that this requirement of a davar hagoreim is only true when we’re trying to be soser the 7 nekiyim l’gamrei, but to be soser one day maybe doesn’t need to be davar hagorem.
II. Shita of 7 days
A. רמ' IB 11:14- Quotes this minhag for women to wait 7 days before beginning 7 nekiyim and says it’s a minhag taus.
B. Trumas HaDeshen 245- Quotes from Rach Ohr Zarua that women in Ostreich didn’t count 7 nekiyim until they waited 7 days, and says he doesn’t know where this came from, and doesn’t think one should be machmir for this shita.
C. ב"ח – quotes Rach Ohr Zarua as well, and explains that this came from fact that women used to go to mikve two times, once after the 7 nida doraysa days (tevila b’zmana), and then after 7 nekiyim (like רש"י quotes in שבת 13) which were even then only midirabanan after bnos yisrael hechmiru al atzman. Therefore, even now, they had a minhag to keep 7 and 7 b/c meheira yibane beis hamikdash and women will again need 7 nida days, not just 5.
D. רמ"א 196:11 – quotes Trumas HaDeshen (see below) and then the minhag of 7 days and writes V’ein taam b’davar, v’hamachir yachmir v’hameikil niskar l’hakdim atzmo l’mitzva. Not encouraging this chumra.
III. Din of 5 days
A. Trumas HaDeshen 245- Woman whose husband is out of town or they weren’t mishameish beforehand, does she have to wait the 4 days? Makes 2 important points:
1. Quotes one of the gedolim who said that, in a case of tzorech, husband was going out of town, to begin 7 nekiyim after 3 days if they hadn’t had tashmish for 3 or 4 days beforehand. However, the Trumas HaDeshen doesn’t like it b/c says he saw in Ohr Zarua that we are gozer lo shimshu atu shimshu. Doesn’t matter whether they were together beforehand, always have to wait the 4 days.
2. Mentions chumra that we should add one more day to the 4 days to make it 5 b/c of chashash that they were mishameish during bein hashmashos and she’ll think it was the day, but really it was already night, and she’ll only keep 4 days, but it will really only be 3 days, and now might have pleitas shichvas zera and it will still be potent and turns out that the first day of her 7 nekiyim were not good. Therefore, e/ woman should always wait 5 days.
B. ב"ח 196:12- Quotes din of lo shimshu atu shimshu, and says that’s only when baala b’air, but if the husband is away then can be meikil and ppl won’t come to make a mistake. And even though the question in the Trumas HaDeshen is asking even about ein baala b’air, the answer isn’t mashma that way.
C. שו"ע 196:11-
מחבר: woman can just wash herself out after tashmish and doesn’t have to worry about poletes shichvas zera at all. But otherwise she should wait 6 full onos (4 days).
רמ"א– quotes the Trumas HaDeshen that we are gozer lo shimshu atu shimshu. And then quotes as well that the minhag is to wait 5 days, like the Trumas HaDeshen as well.
a. ש"ך 20– The ב"ח’s diyuk is not correct b/c the Trumas HaDeshen wrote the questions too. So don’t think we have this kula. (we don’t assume like this ב"ח limaaseh).
IV. How far does this din extend?
A. Kala
1. ש"ך 20- Kala, who presumably doesn’t have any shichvas zera in her, shouldn’t need 5 and 7, just whenever she stops bleeding. But then says that limaaseh she should still keep 5 and 7, even if the chasan isn’t in the city yet. However, says that b’shaas hadchak can be meikil, but in general should be machmir mitaam minhag.
a. Dagul Merivava- doesn’t understand the ש"ך b/c this woman has never had bia ever, what does she need 5 days for? So says could be he’s talking about girl who never had period in her life until this one, so she was muteres beforehand, so should be gozer on her. Or a woman who was nursing and her husband died when she was tehora and hasn’t gotten her period until now when she’s getting married, and this period comes after a long time of being tehora, so should be machmir. But for regular kala doesn’t think should be machmir by regular kala.
b. Lechem V’Simla- Thinks the ש"ך made a lo plug. No fancy svaras.
*But for sure when in shaas hadchak before wedding, can be meikil. Won’t cause a chupas nida b/c of this minhag. But limaaseh usually tell kalas to do 5 and 7. Better in terms of them getting used to the usual way of doing things, and will usually need 5 days to stop bleeding anyways.
B. Went to mikva and then becomes a nida before tashmish.
- Woman who has bad bedika during 7 nekiym has to do another hefsek tahara and start 7 nekiyim again. And e/one agrees that after she goes to mikva, is with her husband, then becomes nida again, has to wait 5 and 7. But what about woman who goes to mikva and becomes a nida again before she’s together w/ her husband? Does she have to wait another 5 as well? (This discussion is quoted in Pischei Teshuva 16)
1. שו"ת Meil Tzedaka 32: Thinks we should be meikil as long as they didn’t have tashmish (See inside).
2. Node B’Yehuda YD 125 – Certain rav who paskened l’kula in this case. Has very sharp lishonos against such a psak. And should be angry with this more, but shouldn’t punish him b/c limaaseh it is a chumra, and even the ikar hadin by real zava is machlokes rishonim. But limaaseh, she should wait 5 and 7.
3. Sidrei Tahara 196:39- Quotes this same case from Minchas Yaakov, and thinks that if still at the mikva then only need 7, but if came home would need 5 as well. But Sidrei Tahara wants to be meikil like the Meil Tzedaka.
V. Situations in which we can be meikil on the 5 days
A. Pischei Teshuva 196:16- quotes Shela: Woman wasn’t with her husband night before and had waited 4 days and …fill in.
- Sidrei Tahara says can be meikil even if shimsha, in order to get chafifa closer to mikva. Fill in.
B. Igros Moshe (?) – In summer, woman is in bungalow with family for whole week, husband only comes home for שבת, discusses whether she can keep 4 and 7 so that they can be together, if 5 and 7 would mean she wouldn’t go to mikva until Sunday night when he has to leave. R’ Moshe was meikil in this case.
*Each of these shaylas has to be discussed on their own to see how much of a tzorech it is.
C. Igros Moshe YD 2:84 – Being meikil in cases of infertitlity. Has case where man and woman aren’t together for a few days before so that if she’s able to get a clean hefsek early (even before 4 days) would be meikil and not require lo shimshu atu shimshu b;makom pru u’vu (R’ Simon mentioned that there are pills that shorten the period as well to make this more applicable).
*Have to know, though, at what point we consider this a tzorech of pru urvu.
D. R’ Tzvi Pesach Frank (Har Tzvi 157) – If woman will not go to mikva one month, remain אסורה, then when she sees again won’t apply the chumra of lo shimshu atu shimshu.
1. Lechem V’simla (came b4 Har Tzvi) discusses that this may not help acc to ש"ך 20 who assumed we keep the gzeira even by a kala whose been אסורה for 10 years.
E. Igros Moshe 4:?:21- what if she’s אסורה libaala for some other reason, d’haynu she gets her period on motzei YK, so they were assuros on YK midina, so do we still say lo shimshu atu shimshu? As long as אסור al pi din, dhaynu it was her veses and they keep full 24hrs, etc. then would allow her to keep only 4 and 7. Many other achronim say this as well. Some say not so pashut, but many assume to be meikil. R’ Abadie is meikil in this case as well.
F. Shevet HaLevi 196:3- If they were poreish b/c of staining, or if they were poreish b/c had a safeik mare, even if in the end the mare becomes tahor, since they were poreish, that counts as day one of prisha if she then starts to see dam. R’ Vozner is not so sure about yom haveses, especially if not nizhar from chibuk and nishuk.
R’ Abadie- if they are still touching then shouldn’t count it. But poreish machmas issur and even from negia, then will count it. But said that if they were going back and forth and not sure if she’s nida yet, etc. and it’s going on for a while, even if touching, then can include that as day one.
F. ט"ז 193:4- quotes Maharal no need to be machmir for trumas haDeshen when it comes to dam besulim.
*A lot of times this is not shayach anyways b/c will lead into her regular period. However, if couple continues on birth control then won’t have the regular period. Also, many poskim say that if they are poreish b/c of dam besulim then if the real period is only 4 days, can start 7 nekiyim.
שיעור #24 (Packet 18)- 12.18.08
Hefsek Tahara
- The bedika done on the 5th day (in most cases) before shkia. 7 nekiyim can only begin once a good hefsek tahara is done. The most chamur bedika, it is l’ikuva.
I. Source of the din
A. Mishna Nida 68A – When does nida doraysa do the hefsek tahara? Machlokes Tanayim:
1. Tk: Day 7, even in the morning.
2. R’ Yehuda: Day 7 from mincha and on.
3. Chachamim: Even from Day 2.
B. gm 68b – Maaseh that Rebbi asked R’ Yossi/R’ Shimon this halacha, and they said even day 2 can do a hefsek tahara. But he didn’t ask about day 1, and that was a mistake not to ask. But why should day 1 be any different? B/c maybe we’ll say “huchzak maayan pasuach”, she started to bleed today so maybe more chashash she will bleed more afterwards, so even a hefsek won’t be a good eidus that its over.
1. רמ' IB 6:20- Day one of nida, even if she gets clean hefsek tahara, still no good b/c huchzak maayan pasuach.
2. רשב"א thb (Bedika/sefira 24A) - No conclusion about day 1 in the gm b/c he says it was a mistake that he didn’t ask. And he comes to conclusion that one can do a hefsek even on day 1, and makes diyuk from fact that he says he made a mistake by not asking.
(a) Bayis HaKatzar- Brings the meikil shita and then says there are machmirim. However, l’olam a person should teach the women in his house to do a moch dachuk at bein hashmashos and it should be there the whole bein hashmashos.
3. רמב"ן Hilchos Nida 2:1- Quotes both opinions about doing a hefsek on day 1. But even if think can’t do hefsek on day 1, but did moch all of bein hashmashos, then e/one agrees that the clean hefsek works. And im kein, the moch on day 1 is midina.
C. שו"ע 196:1-
מחבר: If sees dam for 2 days or more, do hefsek tahara samuch to bein hashmashos of the last day. And quotes the din of moch dachuk, should be there all of bein hashmashos.
רמ"א: Bedieved if she did it in the morning and it came out ok, also good.
196:2-
מחבר: If only bled one day, have to be bodeik herself with moch dachuk, and it should be there all of bein hashmashos (רמב"ן). This is midina.
רמ"א: Bedieved, as long as did bedika at bein hashmashos, ok, even though didn’t do a moch, but shachris won’t be enough.
1. ש"ך 6- For us, what’s the נ"מ? We wait 5 days anyway, even if she sees a kesem?! Answers: woman who has reiyas dam during 7 nekiyim, and just needs to do hefsek right away, bedikas shachris isn’t going to help even bidieved, will need at least a bedika close to bein hashmashos. However, if she only has a kesem, could be we would be meikil.
*R’ Abadie thought that this is not talking about a bad bedika, ela really a reiya (maybe meaning to explain that a bedika doesn’t count as a reiya in this case).
[Maybe there is also a נ"מ in terms of R’ Moshe’s heter by the 5 days in case of infertility, if woman could make a hefsek by day one at end of the day, but not sure]
[Aruch HaShulchan 196:20- since our women all wait 5 days before starting 7 nekiyim and many women stop seeing even before that, they can do hefsek taharas even in the morning, except for the case the ש"ך quotes, when she sees in middle of 7 nekiyim, then have to do it at bein hashmashos]
II. Bein HaShmashos
A. רא"ש Kitzur Hilchos Nida: Should do hefsek tahara at bein hashmashos. טור quotes the רא"ש this way as well, davka bein hashmashos.
1. Beis Yosef: When רא"ש said bein hashmashos, sounds like he’s holding like R’ Yehuda (davka from mincha and on), but that’s not what he means. He means might as well do it then b/c e/one agrees that is better (ravcha l’milsa), but not l’ikuva. And gives another pshat in the רא"ש that since if do bedika on first day has to be davka later in the day, says you should always do it later, so as not to get mixed up. But not talking about the case where she is bodekes early in the day and not bein hashmashos, that there are a number of possibilities for, but he’s just giving kitzur halachos, what woman should do, so he says do it at bein hashmashos. What he holds meikar hadin he doesn’t tell us. *However, lashon bein hashmashos is certainly ל"ד. B/c bein hashmashos itself is a safeik and maybe there was still some bleeding when the new day began, and now won’t have complete day 1. So ela mai, he means samuch l’bein hashmashos.
B. Trumas HaDeshen 248- What’s the din if e/one started to daven maariv already while It’s still day? Is it day or night in terms of doing a hefsek tahara?
- Thinks woman should be machmir to do hefsek tahara before they daven, even if she didn’t daven b/c the tzibur makes it night. And is midame it to dinim we have that get given at night is pasul (Ohr Zarua), and there was a psak to pasul such a get even if it’s given after maariv. And הה"נ by aveilus, Maharam paskened that if s/one davened maariv on erev שבת and then heard that a relative died, that day doesn’t count as day one.
C. רמ"א 196: quotes both deios, the Trumas HaDeshen, and the other tzad which is that even if they were mikabel שבת can be meikil. And minhag is l’chatchila to be machmir, but bidieved ein lachush. And adds that even women who do hefsek before borchu, then see dam while its still day, do another hefsek and count it for that day, and says ein limchos b’yadam.
*Limaaseh, R’ Simon said (and said he heard from R’ Abadie) it’s better to tell a woman to do the bedika at the time when it will be most b’nachas for her to do it and she will be able to do a better job. So if it will be crazy in the house, etc. can tell her to do it after she lights candles (as long as this is before shkia, as it should be).
- But אה"נ this din was not limited to שבת, it’s even true on weekday, just not usually our metzius.
[Aruch HaShulchan 196:21- by them, the minhag hapashut was not to be chosheish for the Trumas HaDeshen]
III. Doraysa/Dirabanan
A. Ohr Zarua Hilchos Nida – the din hefsek tahara is only din dirabanan. Some assume that this means that he thinks that even by nida doraysa once it stops, assume she’s clean. Or it could mean that by nida doraysa the hefsek is doraysa. However, worry that she will bleed later in the day is dirabanan (not sure what this means).
IV. Hefsek Tahara after Shkia (bidieved)
A. Igros Moshe או"ח 4:62- Woman who bidieved didn’t do hefsek tahara, has nine minutes after shkia. B/c has sfeik sfeika. Mach ר"ת and גר"א about tzeis:
גר"א- 13.5 min after shkia is tzeis.
ר"ת- 72 min after shkia is tzeis.
- These times are in eretz yisrael. But in US, further from equator, gets longer (basketball mashal).
R’ Moshe thinks that in US it is shorter, based on the Minchas Kohen: Shitas ר"ת is just in place where can’t see when shkia is, but if you can tell, then don’t have to follow 72 min. So R’ Moshe said that after 50 min in NYC it is totally dark, so that must be ר"ת, so thinks ר"ת in US is 50 min (4 mil), and גר"א is only 9 min (3/4 mil). However, acc to this, can never follow the גר"א. Im kein, for first 9 min always have a sfeik sfeika: Acc to ר"ת, vaday yom, acc to גר"א, safeik yom/layla. Im kein, sfeik sfeika, and can still treat it as yom. This has ramifications for other areas of halacha as well.
**But this is only in case where she is ones.
B. שו"ת Ohr Yitzchak wondered why R’ Moshe needed a sfeik sfeika b/c that’s to be matir din doraysa, but since our 7 nekiyim are only midirabanan in the first place, can just say safeik dirabanan l’kula, so thinks you have a ½ hr. But only says this if she didn’t see dam that day at all, undergarment is clean, didn’t do a rechitza. (Have to be mivarer the svara)
- But this is only really in a shaas hadchak, etc.
C. Taharas HaBayis (R’ Ovadia) - Also working with sfeik sfeika. B/c maybe she didn’t see at all since bein hashmashos started, and even if want to say she did see, maybe this time is day, so hafsaka done afterwards is also in same day. Also, acc to ר"ת beginning of bein hashmashos is for sure day. Adds other sfeikos as well [However, he only says a case where she does the bedika 3 or 4 minutes after shkia. Doesn’t say if this would be a kula even later in בה"ש as well].
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שיעור #25 (Packet 19) – 1.7.09/ 11 Teves 5769
Bedikos and Sefiros 7 Nekiyim
(Whenever telling someone that they only need to keep day 1 and day 7, have to make sure you tell her that she still needs to do the hefsek tahara, always be mifareish very clearly b/c ppl can make a mistake and think that just means 1 and 7 and not the hefsek tahara and that is never ok, R’ Simon was telling us this based on maaseh shehaya where woman misunderstood the Rav she asked and wasn’t doing hefsek taharas for years).
I. Source of Din of 7 Nekiyim- How many Bedikos?
A. Mishna Nida 68B- Zav and Zava (both need 7 nekiyim) who do bedika on day 1 and day 7 and both come out clean, but didn’t check the other days at all, R’ Eliezer- all good. R’ Yehoshua- get day1 and day 7 but still need five more days. R’ Akiva- only get day 7 (Meaning, day 7 becomes day 1).
*General assumption in the rishonim is that this mishna is bidieved b/c lichatchila woman has to do bedikos every day.
1. בעה"מ (Hasagos on ראב"ד) - Thinks this is even lichatchila. What about the fact that the mishna is lashon of bidieved? Brings raya from case of woman in the cave, mishna says lo badka, muteres b/c charada is mesulekes es hadamim, even though this is lichatchila. And also, lashon in our mishna says lashon nimtzu so uses lashon badku. But this shita doesn’t even make it to שו"ע.
B. Gm then has case where checked 1 and 8 (meaning she missed day 7, day 8 counts as nothing in terms of these 7 nekiyim), acc to R’ Eliezer what’s the din? Is it davka 1 and 7? Or could it be even 1 or 7?
- Rav: Techilasan af al pi she’ein sofan, and sofan af al pi she’ein techilasan. 1 or 7.
- R’ Chanina: techila v’sofan ba’inan. 1 and 7.
*Most rishonim pasken like Rav.
**Whenever mention a number of bedikos this is always in addition to the hefsek tahara.
1. רמ' IB 6:22- Bedika on day 1 and 8, and both are good, muteres. Like Rav.
2. רמב"ן Hilchos Nida 2:3-7 – Lichatchila need bedika e/ day one time. If just did bedika day 1, or 2 or 3, and didn’t do another one, should do bedika b’shaas tevila (not clear if this means day 7 or 8). And only did day 7 would work too (what רמב"ן holds in the end is not entirely clear, but רשב"א in Mishmeres HaBayis understands רמב"ן that he thinks even just one bedika on any of the seven, like ראב"ד below).
3. ראב"ד – even though she did hefsek tahara, needs to do bedika every day. However, if only did day 1 and 7 that’s enough bedieved. And also would be ok if only did day 1 or only day 7 (Rav). And what if she just did one of the middle days? Says he’s not sure, but makes sense to be meikil. B/c just like hefsek can be done on any day after she sees, bedika of 7 nekiyim can also be any of the days of the 7.
a. בעה"מ- Upset about the comparison. The bedika of hefsek tahara is kal, just need one hefsek, but din of 7 nekiyim is much more chamur, need bedika every day. Ela mai, cannot make that extension in Rav. Also says maybe we should pasken like R’ Chanina who was Rav’s rebbi. However, there are shitos that this whole mishna about bedikos is just l’inyan taharos but in terms of husband just need to feel that it stopped (Node B’Yehuda made such a diyuk in the רי"ף who left out dinei bedikos entirely). But limaaseh should not follow that shita. And bizman haze where our women are not really zavos, we’re just machmir that they are, can rely on shitas rav 1 w/out 7 or 7 w/out 1. But should not hold like ראב"ד’s extension of Rav to allow bedikos on middle days.
4. Smag Lo Saasei 111- Limaaseh we don’t know who to pasken like, rauy l’hachmir like R’ Chanina, but if did 1st bedika on 8th day then have nothing. Sefer chefetz paskens like Rav. But thinks we should be machmir like R’ Chanina. 1 and 7.
- Also makes another haara (this one is actually first): Says l’chatchila need 2 bedikos per day: V’chein ose shachris v’arvis. When she gets up and at night when she goes to shul before its night.
C. Where does two bedikos a day come from?
1. Mishna Nida 11A: Even though we say daya shayta (as long as doesn’t know she’s a nida can assume she was tehora until now), nevertheless she should be bodekes, and mishna says should be bodekes two times, morning and at bein hashmashos.
*Mishna is talking about taharos, and it makes sense to be bodekes so that the food will be ok at least until the last bedika she did. Smag extends this mishna to isha nida as well.
2. Beis Yosef 196:4- Lichatchila only has to check once a day (quoting from טור), and quotes the other rishonim who hold this way as well, but Smag says 2x. And says they must have learned this from Nida 11A.
3. רע"א שו"ת YD 60- has kasha on dimyon to that mishna by taharos. B/c by taharos, if find any dam there that dam is mitamei her, so another bedika allows me to be more sure that there isn’t still dam there. However, by nida, need to know that she isn’t still bleeding, so how does an extra bedika help, she may have just bled 5 min ago and bedika won’t find anything? (See below [beg of same teshuva] where רע"א explains why we should require a bedika at all)
D. מחבר 196:4- E/ day of 7 nekiyim need two bedikos, once in morning and once samuch to bein hashmashos. And if did just one of the days, 1, 7, or one in the middle, that’s ok bidieved (like ראב"ד all the way). But if didn’t do bedika at all and then did on day 8, only counts as day one. And then quotes yesh omrim that need to do 1 and 7, and ein l’hakeil.
**Have to see how we pasken b/c it’s a stam and yesh omrim, but here he says ein l’hakeil by the yesh omrim. See next שיעור.
II. What is a bedika?
- Is it enough to simply place something inside or do we need bedikas chorine v’sdakin (moving the whole eid bedika around the walls of the vaginal canal)?
A. ראב"ד: 3 types of bedikos.
1. Kinuach: external wipe, this will find a kesem. 3 women sleeping in same bed and there is kesem and want to know who produced the kesem, if they all do external wipe and one finds dam on her cloth, she’s temeia and e/one else is tehora and vice versa.
2. Bedikas Beis HaChitzon: place bedika cloth all the way in until makom shehashamash dash.
3. Bedikas Chorin U’Sdakin: This is only for taharos.
- Brings raya from the gm nida 5a eid lifnei tashmish is bedika for tashmish but not for taharos. See there is a chiluk.
**Does not have requirement of chorin u’sdakin for nida.
B. Chidushei רמב"ן 5b - quotes the ראב"ד, doesn’t like his pshat. No raya from gm 5b b/c that case is bidieved that since we’re afraid that she didn’t do a good bedika b/c she was hurrying before tashmish, so we don’t allow it for taharos, but אה"נ lichatchila she does need bedika chorine usdakin even l’baala. At the end says that hefsek tahara which is very chamur, should be makpid for chorin usdakin, but by 7 nekiyim since meikar hadin only need one good bedika, can be meikil like the ראב"ד. And adds at the end, U’baal nefesh lo yakeil b’kach.
C. רע"א שו"ת 60 (beg of same teshuva from above) - about chorin usdakin: Wants to understand pshat in the ראב"ד, why more meikil by baala than by taharos? Maybe wouldn’t require chorin u’sdakin for nida b/c only purpose of of bedika by nida is to tell me she is not currently bleeding, and chorin usdakin is place where old dam is held, not where new dam is coming out. But when it comes to taharos if there is even old dam sitting in chorin usdakin it will be mitamei her still, so more worried. And explains in this discussion that nevertheless we still require one bedika to show that at least there is no dam at this moment, and combined w/ her original hefsek tahara, it gives the whole day a chezkas tahara.
D. שו"ע 196:6-
1. מחבר: All bedikos, hefsek tahara and 7 nekiyim, should be done b’chorin usdakin. And should be to makom shehashamash dash. However, if it’s hard for her to place it in so deep, then at least the hefsek tahara and bedika of day 1 of 7 nekiyim should be that deep.
2. רמ"א: If she didn’t do day 1 b’omek, she should do so w/ one of the other bedikos of the 7. Bidieved, if she didn’t do this any of the days, but was bodekes b’chorin usdakin as deep as she can go, even though didn’t get to makom shehashamash dash, that’s enough.
(No kula not to do chorin usdakin, though, just not to go b’omek.)
E. Machlokes רא"ה and רשב"א about kula of ראב"ד to do just one bedika in the middle
1. רא"ה: Doesn’t understand, need to have sefurim, so if just check on day 3, won’t have counted days b/c when have day 1, then have the 6 in a row after, or if count day 7, have the 6 in a row before, but here you started in middle and don’t have beg or end?!
2. רשב"א Mishmeres haBayis: Not a din in sefurim, din that it has to be muchzak, so as long as do bedika at some point, see chazaka that chazaka that began w/ hefsek tahara is still intact.
III. Counting 7 Nekiyim
A. תוס' Kesubos 72A- Why doesn’t zav/zava make a bracha on count just like we do by sefiros ha’omer? Pasuk says “v’safra la” just like “u’sfartem lachem”? Answers that by zava might be soseres and will be bracha l’vatala, and this is out of her control.
1. Shela HaKadosh: See from תוס' that don’t make bracha b/c of chashash bracha livatala, but does think she should count. So he thinks woman should count out loud. And says this is how his wife is noheges.
2. Node B’Yehuda YD 123: Shela is such a kadosh that wants to make new mitzvos, but limaaseh this is not really correct, we do not have mitzva of counting, not mentioned by רמ', רמב"ן, Bahag, etc. Why not? B/c by sefira have to count out loud b/c the days continue to come and go whether we count or not, so the count is only chashuv b/c we count it. But by 7 nekiyim, just means to keep a cheshbon b/c if she isn’t clean, the day isn’t counted. So etzem being clean itself itself is a count. So no need to count out loud b/c the lack of dam, the metzius is the count itself. Just need to keep the cheshbon.
IV. Kesem during 7 nekiyim
A. Meil Tzedaka: Woman has kesem during 7 nekiyim, does hefsek tahara that night and then her friends told her that she has to count 5 days as well, not just the 7. And then she finds out she was wrong. So she thought these were the five days and she thinks they are the 7, had hesech hadaas. Says that the days she doesn’t realize were 7 nekiyim can’t count as part of the 7 nekiyim.
1. Sidrei Tahara: Brings a raya for the Meil Tzedaka b/c 1st deia in שו"ע says can do 7 w/out 1. If did hefsek and then nothing until 8, then 8 is your 1. Why is it 1? Why not say limafreia this was 7 and the second day was yom rishon and this is just 7 w/ no 1? Ela mai, see that if she wasn’t mechavein for the 8 to be part of 7 nekiyim it doesn’t work.
*Question if we hold like this and if the raya is so great. R’ Abadie doesn’t like it.
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